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  #196  
Old 09-01-2006, 02:00 AM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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My wife is fantastic --If only she would marry me!
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  #197  
Old 09-01-2006, 03:55 AM
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Ari Ari is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willallison
Furniture with roll stabilisation - now that's something I'd like to see...
ever try to stabilise a rolling furniture ? What about a Rolling Stone ? or.. "rolling.. proud Mary keep on burning rolling..!" King Elvis ha ?Anti roll for the boat..Rock and Roll for the king.
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  #198  
Old 09-01-2006, 04:02 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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I heard of a boat that had a gimballed berth and the entire galley was gimballed. One downside was waking up to do your watch on a gently rolling sea - only to step into a raging gale when you get to the cockpit!
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  #199  
Old 09-01-2006, 05:12 AM
antonfourie antonfourie is offline
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Hi Wilma

Try this link, if it does not work you may need to install flash on your pc

http://www.wally.com/jumpch.asp?idCh...r=0&attivo=1-1

It may be for a 80 footer but they have some good ideas
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  #200  
Old 09-01-2006, 05:13 AM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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Nelson slept in a gimballed cot.--- Isnt a hamock ,-- the standard berth for sailors gimballed?
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  #201  
Old 09-02-2006, 01:16 PM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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For what it's worth

Here's a <40 layout with island berth in the aft cabin. It cramps the forward sections a bit, but maybe not too badly.

http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/H...escription.htm

Alternative layout...

If more forward interior space is desired, then the cockpit can be shortened so that only two-people can sit side-by-side, facing forward. In front, there is a bulkhead-mounted wheel and a companionway. Behind, there are winches and sheets--all within easy reach.

A separate 'guest' cockpit can then be situated on the aft deck, perhaps with a recessed cockpit floor directly over the island berth. Less headroom is needed there anyway.

This deck arrangement seems kind of popular on passagemakers. Usually there's no designated 'guest' cockpit though, since most of these vessels are for serious crossings.

Advantages...

Increased interior space, lengthwise.

The small cockpit is good because it's protected and can't collect much water. One could rest athwartship for watches.

Disadvantages...

It reduces the outside, protected seating area of the vessel. That is, in foul weather, there's no big cockpit to lounge around in.

The cockpit is less of a 'social' center.

The guests get wet in foul weather.



Anyway, it's just a thought

Kristian
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  #202  
Old 09-02-2006, 09:22 PM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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Most cockpits have a winch on iether side for genoa sheets.These are usually in the way,-- but need to be there or near there, I have often wondered about this new idea of one winch only in the middle at the back of the cockpit. Arguably as in tacking for instance, one winch is released then then the other takes over, then why not have the one doing both jobs? Easier for single handed too, you stand behind the wheel and you dont move, all you have to do is turn round.
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  #203  
Old 09-03-2006, 06:06 AM
Crag Cay Crag Cay is offline
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Quote:
I have often wondered about this new idea of one winch only in the middle at the back of the cockpit.
This was the standard arrangement 35 years ago on the Ocean Youth Club's Robert Tucker designed 70ft boats.

People often forget that marine equipment does not increase in price in a linear fashion. Sometimes there are large jumps. If 'a little bit bigger to give a bit more elbow room in the shower' results in a jump in size of the main primary winches, it's a very expensive wish.

The design for the boats in Chay Blyth's British Steel Challenge race were an interesting trade off between displacement / sail area / livability / and stability as one of the design constraints he stipulated was the maximum size of the the primary winches. When you were shouldering the expence of building a dozen 60 footers, it stopped the architects getting carried away with a 'little bit bigger is always better' mantra.
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  #204  
Old 09-03-2006, 09:18 AM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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I've been thinking about the same thing. In fact, having some type of double-masted cat or junk rig would eliminate the jib altogether, so big winches wouldn't be needed at all--at least not for sheet handling.

But having a single big winch available for other purposes, like using the anchor to pull off a grounding, would probably make sense.

All things considered though, I've always had a jib. Don't know what it would be like without one
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  #205  
Old 09-03-2006, 07:42 PM
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Wilma Ham Wilma Ham is offline
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Thanks Anton, I did get through to the wally link your way. Lots to see and think about on that boat.
So it seems that the vote is in favour of a cockpit as an open air working and seating area on the boat. It still means that there is some contradiction in that it is a working AND social area on most boats. For me it is an indicator that it deserves careful thinking where I want and will spend my time on the boat and where to dedicate the space to. I like the comparision Finlander made about the advantages and disadvantages. If on boats people do spend a lot of time outside, giving up inside space to have great outside space seems logical to me. I personally think sailing in warmer areas most of the time is more fun and when in Alaska a smaller inside space is easier to heat.
So for the moment a smaller, safer working cockpit for serious sailing with good visibility and space to stretch out is what I hear as the preferred solution. For shorter coastal sailing a few more people can join the cockpit.
A social area for more people when in port is obviously not the cockpit. Does that mean an area on deck with permanent seating and some rain and sun protection to sit when not sailing and the cockpit only serves for sailing?
I like the idea of having less winches and one multi purpose one. John really enjoyed his junk rig as it did require less sail handling and he liked not having a jib which meant he never had to go forward to sort out problems in bad weather.
In airoplanes and cars we have seatbelts, what about seat belts when sailing in rough weather to keep you safe into your seats. I know you have harnasses but they don't keep you into your place when there is nothing to do. Seatbelts unclip fast enough when you have to move but at least you don't have to brace yourself all the time.
One person mentioned that this all gets a bit wordy, but a design conversation is all about expressing a point of view in detail otherwise I think the value is lost. And yes it takes time, but I think it is worth it as it is about a subject you enjoy talking about.
Will's remark about the person who took a long time to build his boat and then didn't like sailing out of sight of land means we don;t always think about the reason we do things. We also know a person who took 30 years to build his boat. His objective was not about going sailing but it was all about talking about sailing and about building a boat. As long as everybody knows that objective there is nothing wrong. The problem is that if he doesn't know it, he is fooling himself and the rest of the world and the result is a newspaper article. I get the idea that I must work out how ocean crossing is going to sit with me, but it is a great help that John has a lot of experience and does know me. However we are looking for a crossing opportunity in December and are open to offers to crew on a boat.
Comfort on a boat is also in knowing what your role is and if I can provide food and company and am not expected to do more than I can or want to do, then I think we all will have a good time. Also if my wishes about the boat are clear (that is what I am working on here) and taken seriously the whole boating experience will become great. I really hear that in some of your comments that you respect the contribution each can make and that is why you still have a companion to go sailing with, don't you think?
So, questions, where to sit in comfort outside when in port when cockpit is small .
A nd is gimbled furniture and galley workbench a silly idea? It appeals to me not to have everything moving under and away from you.
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  #206  
Old 09-03-2006, 09:14 PM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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As I've said before, I come from a motor boating background. As such, there's always been 4 things that I don't like about sailing boats. I'm not trying to be controversial here - just my own thoughts...
1, they're slow. Generally it takes longer to get from a to b in a sailboat than a powerboat.
2. Being down below is just that - it's like being inside a cave.
3.The cockpits tend to be cramped &/or uncomfortable and mostly exposed.
4. On deck they're cluttered. Bloody bits of rope, rigging, blocks, whinches - all sorts of crap all over the place.

Not much can be done about #1.
#2 has pretty much been covered, re the pilothouse configuration, and I've been on some lovely pilothouse sailboats - the Buizzen 48 springs to mind for instance
#3 When you have a boat capable of sleeping 8 people, why on earth would you cop a cockpit area that's a squeeze for more than 3? 1/2 of them have the track for the main smack across the middle, forcing you to climb over it any time you have to move fwd or aft. When there is a cockpit table you can't get past it to get to the galley. There's a cockpit, yet you have to scramble over railings, ropes and down a slipper transom just to get into the dinghy. I could go on and on.....
Setting aside the needs for this space as a workspace for a minute (which of course you can't do ) you need a place that is sheltered - particularly from the wind in which to while away the hours whilst at anchor. Our 48ft powerboat has a cockpit aft of the aft cabin. On many an occaision we can sit there in shorts and a t-shirt, whereas it would be polar-fleece weather anywhere else on deck.
#4 Once again you can't simply set aside the need for all that rigging and stuff. Though, if it were feasible I'd go for a free-standing mast, with a self-tacking jib. Any sheets etc that were necessary could run in recessed tracks (ala Wally - though they'd need to be quickly and easily accessed. Not sure what you do on a Wally when a sheet breaks or gets jammed...?). The main would either be tracked across the pilthouse roof, or if that were too far fwd, on a 'radar arch'. Failing that from a single point in the cockpit. Sure I'd lose out on my top speed - but hey this is a cruising boat, so speed isn't the main criteria - and as I said in #1 - the bloody things are all slow anyway
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  #207  
Old 09-03-2006, 10:16 PM
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Wilma Ham Wilma Ham is offline
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Wiil, I won't offer you our sea kayaks then when you are in NZ, even if they have a small sail.

I hear what you are saying and I have seen people changing to a motor boat because it suited their needs and it made perfect sense. Quick get away for the weekend and less hassle.
Knowing what you want and what for is still the key issue here, isn't it.
You can still have uncluttered decks and have easy access to ropes, I have seen one sailing boat do it beautifully.
Being out of the wind is a must to comfort, nothing worse than sitting on the water with layers of clothing on, on a sunny day because of lack of shelter.
However Will, you come sailing with us instead of owning a yacht . I still think there might be sailing boat solutions to comfortable places on deck that provides a safe and comfortable watch/steering station and comfortable social seating areas, without resorting to a huge boat. I will have a look if I can find an example of the Buizzen 48 Pilothouse yacht.
Good point about the amount of people the boat caters for and the spaces where that is reflected. I do think there is some more vigilant thinking required there, because of the very reason of limitations and need.
I do look jalously at the low backs of the motor boats where there is no problem stepping onto the boat or getting into the water for a swim.
About the speed, we are living on the thing and I rather have a strong heavy displacement and hull so I can land on the occasional rock and the PC is not so high (when the waves break on the side and the mast doesn't move as fast with the boat and as a result the force on the mast is lower, isn't it, just read it on another thread).
Why do you want speed, Will?
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  #208  
Old 09-04-2006, 12:11 AM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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Quote:
Why do you want speed, Will?
I'm a bloke - we're in a hurry to everything!
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  #209  
Old 09-04-2006, 06:53 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Thanks Kristian.
I had been looking at Bruce Roberts' site, but I hadn't seen that one. Do you know is it a new design? If so it may be out of my budget. I wonder is there a thread that deals with the trade-offs one has to make to fit a budget when building, maybe I'll start a new one.

For us I think I'd prefer the cockpit as it is, perhaps with a hard dodger. I have seen the guest cockpit idea, it looks interesting, but I think I'd use the space over the island berth as an locker for bosunery.

I was wondering how well a big bow sprit / pulpit like that works in Mediterranean bows-to mooring. Has anyone any experience with this?
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  #210  
Old 09-04-2006, 07:14 AM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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motorsailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilma Ham
So, questions, where to sit in comfort outside when in port when cockpit is small.
Wilma--

That's probably the main reason why it's only for the most serious purpose-built design.

Of course, you can create a comfortable area on the aft deck (assuming there's an aft cabin) but a trip to the galley involves many steps. Our last boats had that 'problem.' A normal cockpit is a bit closer to the boat's interior. But, again, with a normal cockpit, an aft island berth becomes more difficult (on a 40-footer). It's a hard choice for sure



Will--

For the most part, I agree with those points. That's why I've stuck with the wide-bodied concept. It's got the interior space and comfort of a powerboat, and the 'working area' isn't so cramped that one needs to climb over everything. A bulkhead-mounted wheel also helps make that possible. Having a sofa onboard is still out of the question though, as with most passagemakers, sail or power.

To boot, I don't have to listen to an engine all day Of course, purists will scoff because windward performance is only about 50-degrees instead of 45, and heavy displacement boats aren't great in light wind, unless they have really big rigs. But having a few hundred gallons of diesel (which can easily be carried on a wide vessel) solves that problem if time is an issue. At 3-liters/hour, it's not so bad.

By the way, passagemakers, whether sail or power, are always limited to their hull speed (barely 9-knots for a 40-footer). So, one school of thought is to always travel at hull-speed. On a wide sailboat, with lots of fuel, it's possible to use sails for the first 6-knots, then use the engine to get an extra 3 (6+3=hull speed).

A reduction gear can be used so the engine can churn-away at super-low RPMs instead of 'racing.' The engine is much quieter that way and more efficient (maybe 2-L/hr?). One could make a long passage for a mere couple-hundred dollars/euros or whatever. I know that, at first thought, it takes the romantic notion out of sailing, but I really like travelling that way--pure comfort. Most of the time, sails are adequate anyway. I love hybrid solutions

Regards,
Kristian
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