We love Ferro cement but beware !

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

A friend described old wooden boats well, when he said it's like that old saying "This is the same axe my great great grandfather used. Since then it has had six new heads and ten new handles.
Keeping an old boat like that floating takes far more work than it would take to built it many times over..

Brent, I think you are missing the point that has been iterated so well, so many times, that wood has an irreplacable part in boats, especially in the lighter, maybe trailered sizes. Steel hulls might be emmintly suitable for your sizes and purposes, but to write wood off in such a finite way is just ignorant.

You do yourself no service being so blatently one-eyed about it.

If I visited your boat, there would be no timber on it at all right? No linings, trim, console furniture ???

I know what I would rather build a yacht tender in, definitely not steel, and preferably not pure fibreglass.

[Andy]

Any chance this could go back to being about Ferro boats chaps?

[Steve W]

rwatson, i hadnt read that about the Ferro Ahwanee being lighter and i find it somewhat surprising but i sure wouldnt dispute it if thats what Bob claimed. I was flipping through their book "Bluewater" last night and he mentioned that they had put 70000 miles under the keel of the second (Ferro)boat which of course included the Antarctic circumnavigation in which they encounted the worst weather of the 200000 miles sailed in both boats and they encounted plenty,no weather routing in those days. Its funny,i remember seeing her back in the early 70s and she was no beauty as i recall,one of those roughys that folks these days would think gave Ferro the bad name it enjoys today.
Steve.

[Brent Swain]

Wood is a wonderful material for interiors,and cheap masts , but for smaller boats, nowhere near as good as fibreglass or aluminium.

[Brent Swain]

Originally Posted by troy2000

I'm not sure whether you're really that ignorant of the characteristics of wood, Brent, or whether you're just in a bit of a trolling mood.

I'm not a professional boat builder or designer. But I come from a long line of woodworkers and carpenters. I've spent a lifetime building everything from furniture to houses to trebuchets out of wood (and yes, a couple of boats too). And it's a marvelous material.

You can build complex shapes out of it, that no one in his right mind would want to replicate in steel. You can build simple but strong shapes out of it, that would leave GRP sagging and limp with no complex curves for rigidity and strength. You can build light shapes out of it, that would be thick and heavy if built from ferro-cement.

It has positive features ranging from natural bouyancy to fire and heat resistance. My 40 year old Architectural Drafting textbook has a picture of a commercial building after a fire. It had been built with steel I-beam joists supported by wood beams. The wooden beams in the picture are still intact, because they charred slowly from the outside in and maintained structural integrity. The steel I-beams are draped over them like spaghetti, because they got hot through and through and failed.

Wood is mostly non-toxic, mostly easy on tools, mostly affordable. It naturally takes a fair curve, instead of having to be held to one. It's easy on a work schedule, too. You can walk away from a plank half-cut or a plywood panel half-fastened, and take lunch....or come back tomorrow or next week. Try that with some of the other materials.

Although they can't compete with a professional in some ways, particularly in speed, conscientious amateurs can build almost anything out of wood if they put their minds to it. They can work at their own pace; they can work alone if they want to or if need be.

Strangely enough, you single out cold-moulded as 'the only logical way to build a wooden boat.' What's so logical about choosing a method that--as you then go on to say--'is very expensive and labour-intensive,' and has 'no real advantage over modern materials when you are done'?

I'm preparing to build a 30' sharpie out of plywood and stick lumber, as a protected and inland water cruiser. You may turn up your nose at both my choice of boats and my choice of materials, but think about this: I can build it a piece at a time at my own speed and according to my budget, with no specialized tools beyond those I already own as a carpenter and woodworker. I can build it for a fraction of the cost of trying to do a one-off steel, ferro-cement or GRP boat, and in a fraction of the time. And I have no doubt that if kept painted, and covered when it's out of the water, it will outlast me (and maybe my children)here in the dry climate I call home.

Sounds pretty logical to me, Brent. I see no point in trying to cold-mould it, or build it out of any non-wood material.

You can't really make sweeping generalizations about the 'best' or 'worst' boatbuilding material, any more than you can make sweeping claims about the best or worst boat designs. Which material or design is the best or worst depends on what size and kind of boat is being built, where it's going to be used, how it's going to be used, who's building it, and a host of other issues.

I've built 36 foot hulls in two days . Try that in wood. I've built dozens outside with no shelter. Try that in wood.
You say that wood is more fire resitant than steel? Give your head a shake. What created the heat that melted the steel beams ? Probably wood burning.
Try building your woodstove or frying pan out of wood.
Natural buoyancy is only relevant in rafts.
I can build a 36 for a fraction the cost I've seen most wooden builders spend for a similar sized boat. When a wooden hull is done , the real expenses begin. You will spend more time and maintenace on a wooden boat in the next ten years than it takes to build a steel boat.
Whatever material you use, you will save a fortune fitting out by buying some metal working tools and building your own gear and anchors.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

I've built 36 foot hulls in two days . Try that in wood. I've built dozens outside with no shelter. Try that in wood.
You say that wood is more fire resitant than steel? Give your head a shake. What created the heat that melted the steel beams ? Probably wood burning.
Try building your woodstove or frying pan out of wood.
Natural buoyancy is only relevant in rafts.
I can build a 36 for a fraction the cost I've seen most wooden builders spend for a similar sized boat. When a wooden hull is done , the real expenses begin. You will spend more time and maintenace on a wooden boat in the next ten years than it takes to build a steel boat.
Whatever material you use, you will save a fortune fitting out by buying some metal working tools and building your own gear and anchors.

What do you think the odds are that I could build a 36 foot hull at home in two days out of steel, using the tools in my shed and garage? Somewhere between slim and none, I'd say.....and I'm willing to bet there were no compound curves in the boats you built, unless you had your panels pre-shaped elsewhere at considerable cost.

I didn't say wood won't burn. But it certainly fares better in a fire than GRP and a host of other synthetic materials, and it doesn't put out toxic fumes that can kill you. And the picture I mentioned of I-beams draped across charred wood beams is a genuine photograph. Structural wood members often survive fires better than steel ones do.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if I built a wooden boat today, it would immediately start costing me thousands a year in maintenance? That's complete nonsense, particularly for a boat that's dry-sailed most of its life.

I'm not trying to tout wood's superiority to steel; I simply object to your complete dismissal of it, when it's being successfully used all over the world for boats. Why don't you spend more time talking about the good points of your chosen material since you like steel, and spend less time telling us what crap wood is?

While we're at it: I live in a wood-framed, wood-floored, wood-sided house, with interior walls sheathed in....wood, strangely enough. It was built in 1940. It'll still be there when you and I are gone, most likely, because there isn't a spot of rust on any of that wood.

[Steve W]

Brent,clearly you are not talking about MODERN wood boat construction which will require much less maintainance than a steel boat over 10 years,in fact a modern wood boat will require the same maintainance as a fiberglass boat,no more. I am currently carrying out repairs to a Searunner 25 Tri which is 28yrs old and apart from needing buffing and waxing it has absolutly NO issues at all,zero rot,its sheet plywood with glass taped chines and everything else is epoxy sealed ,primed and painted with some 2 part paint.
The repairs stem from it dragging its mooring and being blown into a commercial dock.The damage was fairly minor,about 60hours worth.
Steve.

[ancient kayaker]

As already noted before several times I suspect, the cost and time to build the hull is only part of the whole. Wood is a great material for the amateur and makes a satisfactory boat; just watch out for rot. Steel is a great material for the professional, just watch out for rust. Fiberglass ditto just watch out ... well you got the idea. People will buy any of the above.

Many people will love and treasure a wood boat, most will neglect a fiberglass one. Glass over wood will probably outlast most other materials.

Ferro-concrete makes an adequate boat but is evidently not as easy as it might seem, and the market negatives make it a poor investment in which to sink the rest of the money that goes towards making a boat.

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Brent Swain

I've built 36 foot hulls in two days . Try that in wood. I've built dozens outside with no shelter. Try that in wood.
You say that wood is more fire resitant than steel? Give your head a shake. What created the heat that melted the steel beams ? Probably wood burning.
Try building your woodstove or frying pan out of wood.
Natural buoyancy is only relevant in rafts.
I can build a 36 for a fraction the cost I've seen most wooden builders spend for a similar sized boat. When a wooden hull is done , the real expenses begin. You will spend more time and maintenace on a wooden boat in the next ten years than it takes to build a steel boat.
Whatever material you use, you will save a fortune fitting out by buying some metal working tools and building your own gear and anchors.

Brent, now you exagerate to make a point. You know perfectly that what you said is far from reality. Don't pull that stunt. Nobody on hearth built a 36' in two day, this is childish to say that.
We are not in a kinden garden contest.
If we are I tell you I will built a 50' in three hours. What about that? amazing right? No stupid.
So wake up, and tell us something constructive and true.
Your comparaison with wood stove is so stupid that I will forget I read it.
But I have one for you: Try in the middle of winter to have a steel fire in your fire place. Is that not completly stupid? Yes. But it is a Brent theorie.
As for the fraction of the cost, remember you talk to professional, son please think before writting.
The last report show that the maintenance of boat is not in the material (plus or minus 10% depending the material) of the hull, but the systems and mecanicals. You should read reports sometimes, they are boring as hell but full of good stuff. If you are a member of a Society, they will provide you that at no cost in three days!
As for outside building and no shelter, wooden ship whas built like that for several centuries in Maine and down the East Coast. And they continue. What a revelation! No shelter! Brent that is a discovery!
Steel, wood, fiberglass ferro, alu, all these material are great whith their own value. You have to know that if you are a good builder and designer.
Cheers
Daniel

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Andy

Any chance this could go back to being about Ferro boats chaps?

As soon as Brent stops riding his hobbyhorse around the stage...

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by dskira

... If we are I tell you I will built a 50' in three hours. What about that? amazing right? No stupid ...

Daniel: no problem, just chop down a couple of trees, lash 'em together and off you go! Problem is finding trees that are under cover

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Daniel: no problem, just chop down a couple of trees, lash 'em together and off you go! Problem is finding trees that are under cover

Plus during those same 2 hours, your freshly poured ferro anchor will set.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by hoytedow

Plus during those same 2 hours, your freshly poured ferro anchor will set.

Everyone makes that sound so easy. They never mention what a pain it is to pour the matching ferro anchor rode......

[wardd]

how do you weld cement?

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by wardd

how do you weld cement?

jb weld