vulnerable rudder issue

[mod flod]

I have a 1981 Heritage one-ton sloop that has a centerboard that slides down vertically through a trunk. The rudder was originally designed so the lower half could retract inside the upper half by means of a threaded rod accessible in the cockpit. The previous owner got rid of that system and epoxied it all up so now, I'm stuck with a rudder that protrudes 1 foot under the boat. Scarry isn't it?
When I pointed it out to him he told me "Just leave the centerboard down a foot at all times" Good at sea but in a grounding, the board is gonna be pushed up its trunk by the weight of the boat and there goes my rudder.
I thought of two solutions on which I'd like opinion: First, get rid of that rudder and make a new retractable one (the actual modified rudder weights in at close to 300 pounds, is that normal? I would make the new one out of vaccum bagged carbon fiber)
Solution number two, make a 1 foot boot for the centerboard that would prevent it from going back up it's trunk in case of grounding...
Any thoughts anybody?

[DGreenwood]

I don't see a centerboard protecting your rudder very effectively,
but you have a bunch of options, depending on where you sail and your ability to repair your screw ups.
You could make the lower foot of the rudder out of lighter material so that you have a breakaway rudder that you would have to repair with glass and foam. This would be OK if it was not likely to happen often.
If you have a tendency to hit bottom often the you could make a retractable or Kick-up rudder. Multihull folks are up these methods.

[PAR]

I've never seen a retractable rudder that looked to work well or quickly as would be needed in a hard grounding with everything flying. A kickup is the typical setup in shoal draft boats. 300 pounds worth of rudder is very excessive. I've built several different types and have a few designs available if you'd like to drop me an email, I'll be glad to pass them along. You don't need a Band-Aid, you need a fix and limiting the centerboard travel isn't a fix and may cause you to shear your pivot pin and damage your rudder while you locate all the local sand bars and submerged tree stumps in your sailing area.

I live just 30 minutes north of you (depending on traffic on 441) an have an old kickup rudder assembly off an early Catalina 22 (1974 is my guess) and other then moving the pintels to match your gudgeons, may be just the thing.

[mod flod]

Thanks for the answer guys,
I knew 300 pounds was ridiculous! My rudder is under the boat (see pic), not hung from the transom so (correct me if I'm wrong) a kickup won't work for me. Also, I thought I'd use the rudder up as soon as it gets a bit shallow and bring it down in deeper water, where the daggerboard would protect it from floatsams. The other thing that I like about a retractable is the idea of being able to beach the boat on it's belly. BTW I wasn't very clear before, I actually have a daggerboard, not a centerboard i.e. no ballast, no pivot, it slides up and down like in dinghys, purpose only for upwind sailing since the ballast is at the bottom of the boat.
And I agree with you PAR, I need a fix i.e. new rudder. Plus I have to admit that the idea of cooking one myself is very attractive. The boat is 38 feet LOA, too. What do you think of my reasoning?

[PAR]

I see what you're talking about now. Looks like a bustle at the end of the LWL where the rudder slot goes through. Bad idea, especially on a boat big enough to break things clean off in a grounding.

You can still have a kickup rudder, just one designed to do so under the stern rather then aft of it. Dagger style anything just jam when run up onto things, where the boat "centerstands" on the appendage. In small day boats they (dagger appendages) can save a lot of interior space, but on larger boats I've never been terribly satisfied with the trade off, when you sail in shoal country. A centerboard and kickup will allow you to "feel" your way into the shallowest of water, but you have to be pretty quick on the dagger to prevent plowing trenches in every skinny anchorage you may want to explore.

That's a pretty low aspect rudder as currently arranged. You have an opportunity to design a much better foil and plan, even if encumbered with a dagger or kickup feature. Give me a yell and we can crack a beer(s) and hash it out.

[Raggi_Thor]

Something like this?

[mod flod]

How do you activate the mechanism too? The ones I know are "normally up" and you rotate them down into place. Would you suggest a cable in the rudderpost? Also the whole assembly is underwater so it would have to be profiled. Sounds very interesting

[Raggi_Thor]

If you ask me, some kind of wire to pull it down, or maybe a rubber cord (do you say that)? Of course a light rudder will float.

I have seen rope or wire goiung through the rudder stock. Sometimes it's arranged so that the rudder will pivot if the tiller is lifted.

[mod flod]

My rudderstock is already hollow from the previous retractable system... Do you know of any examples that I could see online of that kickup system hung from under the stern? I have a hard time visualising it.

[Raggi_Thor]

Well, I don't have any pictures of kickup rudder under the stern only on the transom.
http://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/weble...tter5.html#kik
BUT, if you make the casing or walls around the rudderblade strong enough it should work OK. The top of the rudder blade should have a "track" to hold the wire in place.

[Karsten]

Make sure the "holding the rudder down" mechanism works perfectly. If it comes up accidentially while sailing you will have a hughe amount of pressure on the helm.
I'm only sailing a 16' dinghy and we used to have folding rudders like that. They never worked and now they are either fixed or dagger rudders.

Karsten

[mod flod]

Hey guys,
thanks for the input. I talked to an architect that's talking me into putting a keel in the boat that would protect the rudder, increase dramatically the positive stability of the boat by moving the ballast way down and get rid of the ugly daggertrunk in the cabin.
Very seriously thinking about it.
PAR, you said before "a fix, not a band-aid". Totally agree with that. Bit rough on the wallet to say the least but hey...
What's your thoughts on the matter?

[PAR]

I'd strongly think again about putting a fin keel on a daggerboard designed yacht. Who is this "architect? I truly hope the keel you're talking about is a skeg and not a ballasted fin.

Your boat relies mainly on form stability (some weight in the board also) to resist it's press of sail, a "keel" boat relies on ballast down low and is typically a narrower version then a shoal draft sister of the same model. Your boat will need a whole new rig if the ballast is dropped dramatically as suggested and the reason I'm questioning the abilities of this "architect" It sounds like he's looking for something to "do" on this yacht, rather then executing a solution to the issues aboard.

Frankly, you're in need of a rudder, a kick-up or retractable as we live in skinny water country down here. Putting a deep fin on a boat not designed for one in a shallow water area is just not a lot of sense if you ask me, especially if all you need is a rudder.

If you'd like to remove the cumbersome dagger case in the cabin, a centerboard would be a much better solution then a fixed fin. The boat would remain shoal, the interior could have little or no case intruding into the space and the rig could stay as it is.

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree with PAR here. The rig may not be strong enough to the extra stability, the hull mau not be strong enought to absorb the stress from a ballasted keel and so on.