Troller Yachts vs Trawler Yachts

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

The large and fast boats stil;l remain at the mercy, or lack of, the big oil companies.

Not a problem when, as is often the case with 200+ footers, you own either the oil company or the country it drills in!

[Greenseas2]

LOL and agree, but how many people are there at the top of the oil industry that have boats or yachts.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

LOL and agree, but how many people are there at the top of the oil industry that have boats or yachts.

A lot. Probably they use them to give nice parties and little more. But they can not do without them ... really important ....for status

[Greenseas2]

I assessing the market for troller type efficient boats, we're looking more toward the hard working family who wants to cruise and save their bucks while doing so. Mega yachts are in another realm. However we noticed locally that deck parties at the dock on the big guys has become the norm as has a 1 hour cruise to a local water front restaurant where they hog all of the dock space in order to be able to strut their stuff and look down from the hundred story fly bridge on us peons eating sea food (uncatered of course). Then on the other hand, I've seen great little boats pass the megas where everyone on the mega rushes over to the side to see the little guy with more than a little envy in their eyes. I'm all for designing for those who have, but have little.

[FAST FRED]

we're looking more toward the hard working family who wants to cruise and save their bucks while doing so.

The std choice for 5000 years has been the sailboat.

Many Many circumnavigations have been done in quite small boats that are very inexpensive.

Most of the high cost today is "luxuries, fridge , freezer , air cond and a huge variety of electric gadgets that hope to relieve the crew from needing to learn to navigate.

" I've seen great little boats pass the megas where everyone on the mega rushes over to the side to see the little guy with more than a little envy in their eyes."


Not "envy " in their eyes , its the BOREDOME of Marine Motoring , nothing to do but look over the side as the paid hand steers.

ANY motorboat that is truly designed as a displacement cruiser will go about the same speed , on the same fuel.
The lower hull speeds of the double enders can be accomidated with just a bit more power.

Free power (the breeze) makes the most sense if distance is a requirement with low bucks.

FAST FRED

[SeaSpark]

A popular Dutch boating magazine (Waterkampioen) organised a contest in 1999 for an economical, easy to build motor cruiser.

Winner of the contest was the well known company van de Stadt design.

http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds431.htm

Building in progess:

http://www.yachtservices.dk/stadtline38.htm

The drawing package and building manual for this yacht is very comprehensive. The yachts easy construction (outside frame method) make it possible for a not so experienced builder to build one. Stadt have lots of experience in wood epoxy design so think they could develop drawings for this type of construction.

I'm not so fond of the superstructure but the hull has proved to be very efficient at low speeds.

[Greenseas2]

Seaspark: Thanks for the information. I'll check it out
Fred, while sail is a good source of powering a boat, what I'm looking for is a good double endeed design that would be affordable to those who want to cruise under power. For one thing, seniors don't like the idea of having to go on deck at night or in heavy seas and prefer the comfort and security of a pilothouse. A double ended troller is a lot more efficient than a box ended trawler in any case. The idea of the thread is to come up with a nice small troller that is economically operated. The second part of the desired equation is for the boat to also be operated with inexpensive biodiesel. Put the two together and there is a win win combination. As I said previosly, extremes can be applied to any situation to create negatives. With this combination, negatives would be hard to find or create.
Stubborn is my middle name!

[Guillermo]

Smaller than what you are looking for, but a very nice design, from my point of view:
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catpow.php#143
Cheers.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

[b], what I'm looking for is a good double endeed design that would be affordable to those who want to cruise under power. !

What about this one?

I Would say that Guillermo likes this boat


http://www.botentekoop.nl/objectDetails.aspx?ID=405175

[Greenseas2]

The boat is getting close to what I think would be ideal. It appears that it might be a motorsailer wait for mast and rigging, but a beautiful boat in any case.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

...I Would say that Guillermo likes this boat

Yeap!
She's is a custom Banjer, named DE WIDJE BLIK, owned by a member of the Banjer 37 Motorsailer Club, who worked at the Eista Werf boatyard. The boat was outstanding and in extraordinary good condition when I visited her in 2001, when the Banjers Gathering that year.

Taking the opportunity, I enclose an image (not very good) of a motor Banjer from the drawing table of Dick Lefeber, Banjer series (And many others) designer. The model never was built. It was to be called 'Super Banjer'. Also an image of Dick, in memoriam.

"Dick Lefeber’s designs are characterized by their attractive, timeless lines, functionality and space.
He started out as a draughtsman/designer with an inland boatyard, where he designed flat-bottomed vletten (classic Dutch motor cruisers), tugs, inland vessels and fishing cutters.
It was in the 60s and 70s, when Dick Lefeber worked for ‘Eista Werf’, that he really won his spurs by designing the popular Doerak and Marak models. He also drafted the well-known Rogger, Banjer and Krammer designs. In that period he developed at least 40 models and variants in steel and polyester. He went on to design countless Lemster Aken and Staverse Kotters for ‘traditional’ builders."

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

The boat is getting close to what I think would be ideal. It appears that it might be a motorsailer wait for mast and rigging, but a beautiful boat in any case.

This kind of boats comes in the line of old fishing working boats. Those lines began many centuries ago and have been perfected by generations of seamen. They were sailing boats and sometimes they had oars too.
For some time those working boats got motors and maintained also their sails. Then, by pressure of a rushing life (time is money), they lost their sails (and a little of their souls) and became motorboats...but maintained the time proved hull shape.

Now the story repeats itself with the pleasure descendants.

That’s nothing new to see a motorsail losing its sails. I don't like it, but I have to admit that they are still fine nice boats...and after all they were already good and efficient motorboats when they were motorsailors.

Take a look at this old and beautiful “Menorquin” motorsailor. Well, for many years now they have lost their sails (and also their rational side – they have now huge motors) but they are still beautiful seaworthy boats.

[Willallison]

Fred -

Free power (the breeze) makes the most sense if distance is a requirement with low bucks.

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own. This basically comes down to the cost of the rigging and the structure required to support it. Few would consider building a sailboat without and engine, so there is little or no saving there. Further, (most) sailors spend more time under power than they would care to admit. And of course the cost of maintenance for a sailboat is often higher - not simply as a result of having to replace sails etc, but often because (many) sailboat owners tend to neglect the ongoing maintenance of their powerplants.
Obviously not always the case, but certainly worth bearing in mind....

Greanseas - the only real advantage that I can see to having a canoe stern is to 'spilt' overtaking waves whilst in a running sea. You don't need a canoe stern to avoid having a squared-off submerged transom - it is of course the underwater shape that determines how slippery a given hullshape is...
Ok - if you like the styling, that's something else. But as always there are other aspects to consider - a canoe stern for instance will generally mean the loss of a boarding platform and a considerable loss of cockpit space.

[SeaSpark]

The boats posted by Vega and Guillermo look infinitely better then the v/d Stadt.

For as far as i understood (despite the name) the scope of this thread was to find a boat that is inexpensive to build, maintain and power. This means we should be looking for a boat of light displacement, easy in construction with use of conventional materials to keep costs down. The last two examples are beautiful but sort of heavy in displacement and complex in construction.

Perhaps we can restart the discussion in a "affordable, low fuel consumption, good looking motor cruiser thread?

(edit: i'd hate to start a thread for a boat with no sails)

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

Fred -

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own. .

It all depends on how many miles you travel each year.

Go and circumnavigate and take a look at the fuel costs, on the other hand I know a guy that crossed the Atlantic with less than 30 gallons, or a guy that has made it from the US to Australia with 10 gallons (mostly for the batteries) and fast too.