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  #31  
Old 04-24-2006, 09:24 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Employment

Hi Fred,
I'm sure that there are sufficient jiobs for those who want to work; howwever, careers aren't anywhere close to what they used to be. I'm sure that the layed off airline pilots planned to be flying planes until they retire, I also sure that the GM and Ford workers planned on a lifelong career. The same with almost every industry. Cetainly a person can work, but for how long and how much. The statistics now are that only 1 in 47 baby boomers will be able to retire. At some point in time, the manufacturers of the big yachts will most likely meet the same fate as GM and Ford and mostly due to petroleum (fiberglass/epoxy resin) product costs. It's already having a profound affect on the industry who are building fewer boats and selling them at higher prices. Same products for more money and frequently above product value. Use the old stock market P/E ratio to figure it out. This is one reason that new boats sold today take an immediate loss of up to 25% aftyer they are out the door and in to the used boat market within the same model year.
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  #32  
Old 04-24-2006, 09:55 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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"Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, fuel capacity"

NOPE. Typo
Corrected:

Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, TIME.

There are very few displacement mode trawlers. All (with some sale volume) are now at least semi displacement, if not full planning.

People who can afford a boat, accept displacement speed, and are concerned by fuel bills simply buy sailboats instead of powerboats.
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2006, 03:57 AM
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Guillermo Guillermo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega
.... I guess clients like to make a big bow wave.
Absolutely!
Even if they have to burn biodiesel, bananas or coal!
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2006, 06:42 AM
FAST FRED FAST FRED is offline
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"There are very few displacement mode trawlers. All (with some sale volume) are now at least semi displacement, if not full planning."

This is due to the fact that many NEW owners are indeed still working , so have a "need for speed" to get back to the office on Monday (or salt mine for the greenies).

The modern boats are being advetrised as buy & use it NOW ,
and slow down when you retire and have the time.

Doesn't work well as the engines and hull designs for SPEED are hardly suitable for plodding ,
and the 400hp engines die quite early when slobering at 2 gph "trawler" speeds.

"This is one reason that new boats sold today take an immediate loss of up to 25% aftyer they are out the door and in to the used boat market within the same model year."

Fraid you don't comprehend marketing and new sales .

Your new CAR will be worth less after a ride around the block,

A new motorcycle is worth far less with 10 miles in the clock,

A motorhone will be worth less 5 seconds after delivery.

So where is the suprise that a motorboat has the factory markup and dealer prep and markup LOST after first sale?

Remember too ALL the electronic gear aboard is dated about every other WEEK , so has little residual value , even when the boat is a month old.

SO the 25% price drop is normal, even higher loss if the electric goodies and State Sales Tax extortions are counted.

FAST FRED
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  #35  
Old 04-25-2006, 04:37 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Good comparisons

Fred,
Good commodity comparisons and they're pretty much true LOL. Difference is the investment in a boat is quite a bit great and the loss more substantial. Still pushing efficiency and economy of operation for those who want low, slow and steady. Lately I've been doing some reading on George Beuhler and Harold C. Hanson hull designs and they both are in the ball park of long distance cruise boats with amenties similar to trawlers. Fortunately, there are many who don't have to be in the office or factory every day and would appreciate a small, long range boat to cruise with. Problem is with the high speed guys, they always seem to go to the same cove, waterside restaurant or marina. Not enough fuel, or time, to do some real traveling. I do expect to have some critics of thye design, but useful criticism is a learning experience also and shows the path to take to the market place.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2006, 05:34 PM
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Corpus Skipper Corpus Skipper is offline
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Quote:
we make our own biodiesel fuel at 46 cents a gallon
Mind sharing that recipe with the rest of us? I'm starting to drool!
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  #37  
Old 04-25-2006, 05:49 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Biodiesel

Best to go to Biodiesel.org. There's a lot of information on the web to include small refinery equipment. Most of the equipment can be fabricated by yourself at less expense. Biodiesel.org also lists the biodiesel refineries and bulk sales in the US. It's good stuff and burns clean in my boat, plus, no sulfur. Here, I've made arrangements to pick up used vegetable cooking oil from 4 Dunkin Donut and it's almost more than I can use. Excess biodiesel fuel is sold at $1.50 per gallon to towns people with diesel trucks and cars. So far, no complaints.l
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2006, 06:04 PM
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marshmat marshmat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad
I've said it before, you can find it in this forum, the buying public are not interested in efficiency. It's like cars, people claim they really want high efficiency, but the tradeoffs are too big, thus they buy pickups and SUVs.
True a few years ago. I think that's finally starting to change.
Cars, for example: Volkswagen has a 4-month waiting list for TDI-powered Jetta and Passat wagons- they get 5 litres per 100km and carry more gear than an Explorer. Prius and Civic Hybrid sales are skyrocketing while GM and other truck-heavy companies are suffering. I think the public is starting to become a bit wiser to the realities of non-renewable resources.
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2006, 07:27 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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True

Matt,
People are getting hit where it hurts....in the wallet. I'm very thankful that my kids are grown and on their own. Raising a family with today's economic could be very tough. Almost every segment of industry has been adversely affected by fuel prices. Let's face it, after crude oil is gone, what does OPEC have? sand and few investments that aren't enough to sustain a country. I believe the time to concentrate on building fuel efficient and biofuel boats is near at hand.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2006, 08:20 PM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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Excuse my late entry to this debate - been away playing with a (fairly thirsty ) boat for a couple of weeks...
I'll side firmly with Tad on this one. The reality is that the vast majority of boat owners use their boat for short breaks, travelling only a short distance each day. There are exceptions of course - and for these people there are exceptional boats available - or of course there's the otpion of custom building.
Let me use the example of the new Camano 41, reviewed in the most recent issue of Passagemaker magazine. Before commencing construction of this vessel, the builders did extensive research and found that boaters spend 90% of their time aboard either at anchor or tied to a dock. Of those who travelled further afield, few spent more than 4 hours each day underway. Now, based on the info in the article, I would expect that the people the builders interviewed would use their boats for more extensive cruising than most would...
So, the question - for most people - is whether they buy a fat 40 footer that does 2mpg, but which enjoys a comfortable, almost home-like interior. Or a slender 50 footer, with its higher associated build and berthing costs, that does say 4mpg.
The answer - once again, for most people - is firmly the former - particularly if they want their wives to come along as well! The distances they travell simply don't warrant going along with the compromises that are a necessary component of economical travel
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2006, 05:08 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Beware

Biodiesel is NOT compatible with current high efficiency european diesels. The current electronically injection pressure is 23500 psi (1600 bars). The max allowed is 5% of biodiesel, unless you want 5000-7000$ repair in your engine.

And this is EN590 biodiesel industrially produced (in germany) with controlled characteristics, not the one you make in your backyard.

New euro IV catalysed diesel with NOx filters does not tolerate at all ANY biodiesel. It will ruin the catalysor and fool the electronic control unit.
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  #42  
Old 04-26-2006, 06:33 AM
FAST FRED FAST FRED is offline
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Fred, Let's look at another issue rather than costs of fuel. Crude oil is a finite commodity in nature and the US uses 25% of the refined product according to Wall Street Journal statistics. Also forcasted by the financial gurus is the strong possibility of fuel rationing in the not to distant future.

Fuel "rationing" in a free society is done by PRICE , not the usual Nomenclactura of the command societies.

The DOE sez there are over 3 trillion bbl of recoverably oil , about 30 years at the current growth rate.

In 30 years we will beusing Fusion , and the cars will all not polute as they will be powered by flywheels.
This Tech has been avilable for a decade or more , using composite flywheels in a vacume can with good bearings , the ability to store about 10 to 12 gal worth of fuel of energy . The reason it does not exist is the "Liars for Hire" are salivating at the thought of an accident where ALL 10g of energy is released at once.
So no mfg is brave enough.

Perhaps the Chinese slaves will be happy to get a clean cheap vehicle and not worry about legalities/ hassles of a 150,000rpm flywheel running after hitting an ox.

FAST FRED
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  #43  
Old 04-26-2006, 09:03 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Fuel supply

Why then did Pennsylvania, Delaware and two other states run out of gas and diesel just this weekend? Why also is the White House and Congress so concerned about the supply and fuel prices. Also why is there now a 4 month wait to get diesel cars. Most of what I'm reading as criticism is opposite of real world life. I still maintain the arguement in favor of efficient hull designs that can provide seaworthiness and long range at ecomomical fuel consumption rates. A good little example is a 33 foot fiberglass Monk trawler on Yachtworld.com that has a 50 hp diesel, 116 gallon fuel capacity and a range of 1,080 miles at 7 knots. Basically the hull design is one from Monk's troller work boat designs.
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  #44  
Old 04-26-2006, 09:57 AM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenseas2
Most of what I'm reading as criticism is opposite of real world life. I still maintain the arguement in favor of efficient hull designs that can provide seaworthiness and long range at ecomomical fuel consumption rates.
That seems logical to me. But the market is who decides what trends will be dominant.

The cars analogy is hardly applicable here, because you use the car everyday in a utilitarian way.

The boats we are talking about are pleasure craft, in many cases expensive toys. If you are using a boat to travel a lot (and use it a lot) then you are right. But the ones that use the boats that way have normally sailboats or motorsailors. Motorboaters (big boats) use their boats rarely. In many cases they are show off machines that measure their wealth and power. Those guys normally travel with a small professional crew, and that is more expensive than the fuel they waste (because they don't use their boats very much).

As someone has said the high end motorboat market is doing very well, with, in some cases, several years of delay to get a boat.
On the other hand, as Marshmat said :
Quote:
Originally Posted by marshmat
I would be quite interested to see some boats such as you describe coming into the recreational vessel markets- there is an amazing lack of efficient, low-power motor yachts right now.
Perhaps what is amazing is not the lack of that kind of boats on the market, but the deliberate option of motor boaters for expensive toys instead of efficient boats, or perhaps what they really want are beautiful toys (nothing wrong with having nice toys).
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  #45  
Old 04-26-2006, 11:48 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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You are right

There are boats that clearly are used to demonstrate, and flaunt, an owners wealth, and toys are good also. The boats that Irefer to that would be acceptable to a buying public would be an efficient variant to the thousands of trawlers on both the new and used boat market today. Aboat that could be used for lower operating costs with similar, or better, amenities, would be accepted in to the market place with relative ease. We're not refering to high volume mass production, but rather a product of several smaller producers with their own design difference but similar under wayter efficiency and tankage. The nice thing about boats with small diesels is that the owners can produce their own Biodiesel for much less than petroeum based diesel and about 15% of the cost. The large and fast boats stil;l remain at the mercy, or lack of, the big oil companies. I use biodiesel in my own boat. It's clean burn and has no engine deteriorating sulfur. I plan to open an new thread on biofuels today. It goes hand in hand with efficient hulls for motor cruisers as well as sail assisted motor sailer.
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