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  #16  
Old 04-23-2006, 04:48 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Welcome aboard Guellermo

Wondered when you would catch up to this thread. Agree with youbut am paralleling the motorsailer thread with similar technology. Boats that I talking about are in the 26 to 32 foot double ended class and predominently meant for the long range cruisers as compared to today's trawlers that advertise, "sleeps 10" then follows in the specs with 40 gallons of fuel and 10 gallons of water. Obviously a difference in philosophy with the high speed floating condos where only one person in ten can take a bath LOL. Ripe crew.
Seriously though, I do believe that the market is there, even though it may be limited. The direction that I will eventually go is a Monterey Clipper design that can be built of strip plank or laminate and geared for those who can't afford the big stuff, yet want to cruise long distance on the most efficient hull possible for the least amount of cruising costs. One big plus for this philosophy is that the folks that build them and use them won't suffer the immediate 25% depreciation when the boat goes out of the show room door that happens with "store bought" plastic. Those with bucks take a big hit with todays prices. I ordered the plans from mystic seaport and have made arrangements to see a couple of the original Montereys along with a Colvic Watson when we go to San Francisco next month. Hope to bring back some measurements and possibly some building plans that can be translated.
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2006, 04:58 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Good answer

Sheetwise, your answer is really impressive. I think that these forums are really to develop something good for the person whose income is lower than a Wall Street broker's. Of course, with jobs being as insecure as they are now, even those making good money might take an interest in nautical practicality. At any rate, this is geared to coming up with something for the "have nots" rather than the "haves". Lately too, there have been a lot of megayachts hitting the market. Maybe that's a not-so-subtle statement in favor of economy.
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2006, 05:07 PM
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Guillermo Guillermo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenseas2
.. I ordered the plans from mystic seaport...
I'd love to have a look at them, whenever you decide to post them here.
__________________
Guillermo Gefaell
Gestenaval S.L., Naval Architecture & Marine Engineering
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2006, 05:31 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Happy to post them

Guillermo, theres a good representation of a Monterey Clipper on Yachtworld.com. Type in "Monterey Clipper". It's a 32 footer. Unique is the air cooled Lister Diesel. I've seen them used in other commercial boats and, from what I understand, they are very reliable like the Saab diesels. Personally, I think a lot can be done with the design even on a relatively conservative mass production basis , but only in the 28 to 32 foot lengths. I just ordered the plans from Mystic Friday. There's a good parallel between the British double enders and the Monterey boats. Some difference, but not great. Both can be fitted with bilge keels for developemnt of a motorsailer that would operate economically. The hull design is pretty much in concrete but could use some suggestion on interior schemes and hull materials.
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2006, 06:31 PM
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Tad Tad is offline
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Greenseas,

I would suggest that the owner's of Nordic and America tugs know nothing and care less about efficiency under power. As mentioned above economy in the marina is more important than that underway. 37' boats 13'+ wide with 380 HP installed and a hull form to use it are nothing like efficient in my book. The speed is too high for the length and weight of the boat, thus they operate at about the most inefficient range possible.

The principals of naval architecture are simple and there is no need to revisit hulls from commercial boats or previous centuries. There are two main components to resistance, friction and wave making. Efficient hulls are created by reducing either or both of these. Make the hull longer, make it lighter, reduce entry and exit angles, and push it slower through the water, that is all it takes.

The market you are after is potential owners of Grand Banks 32's, currently there are 80 of these listed on Yachtworld, why? Decent build quality, low purchase price, economic operation, what is wrong with these boats?

Not to rain on your parade, just trying to be realistic. The world needs more pretty boats and I hope yours is one.

All the best, Tad
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  #21  
Old 04-23-2006, 06:49 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Why? you say

Hi Tad,
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  #22  
Old 04-23-2006, 07:00 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Why? you say

Just a few basic statistics: Grand Banks 32 with a water line of 30.75 feet and powered with a 135hp Ford Lehaman. S/L of 1:1 is 5.54 knots. Nimble 32 with a water line length of 29.3 feet and a S/L of 1:1 is 5.4 knots using 75 hp. , Monterery Clipper 32 has a water line of 26 feet and S/L of 1.1 that is 5.15 knots with a 35 hp diesel. It would appear that for a GB to hit 8 knots, he would just be turning the fuel can upside down. Optimum cryusing speed of all vessels are within about a half a knot. Whose fuel bill would you rather pay for 3 or 4 months to a year of cruising considering all have the same approximate amenities?
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  #23  
Old 04-23-2006, 07:14 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Considerations

The Monterey troller s hull is really a form found on canoe yawls and have a fine entry and exit. Appreciate your input on most effiocient hull design and that's what I'm really after. Do you have any recommendations for innovative fitting out. One item that I will have in my next, and 24th boat, is a chart platform right in front of, but higher than, the helm with engine instruments on the side bulkhead and navigation instruments forward of the chart table, but elevated some for easy reading. Chart table to be just large enough to hold a standard size chart set. Red goose next lamp of course. We had a lot of good comments from other captains who saw the modification to the lower helm on the Mainship. Great for night nav. I'm of the old school where you still make hourly plots on paper despite the fact that we have a complete integrated nav system. Just my own personal quirk.
I'm sure that the deck house can be designed for eye appeal. Thanks again for the input.
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  #24  
Old 04-23-2006, 07:44 PM
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Tad Tad is offline
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Greenseas,

See attached

Troller Yachts vs Trawler Yachts-montereyclip.jpg
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  #25  
Old 04-23-2006, 07:59 PM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Originally Posted by Tad
I've said it before, you can find it in this forum, the buying public are not interested in efficiency. It's like cars, people claim they really want high efficiency, but the tradeoffs are too big, thus they buy pickups and SUVs.
I agree.

I am a sailboat sailor but my wife hates to have to move away to allow me to trim the sails.
She would be very happy if I bought a motor boat, not any motor boat, but a Menorquin. She loves the boat and I have to say that of all motorboats, I rather like it.
So, in the Dusseldorf boat show, after visiting a lot of sailboats my wife said she wanted to see the Menorquins. The guy that showed us the boats was not a typical seller, but an important guy from the factory in Menorca (Menorquins are made in Menorca and are based on the old local fishing boats, the LlaŁts). When we told him that Menorca is our preferred cruising ground and that we had sailed there (from Portugal) several times, he was really friendly toward us .
We talked about Menorca, and about Menorquins, not the sellers talk, but an interesting conversation about the Menorquin evolution. The first boats, many years ago, were motorsailors. Then clients favored motorboats, and when I asked why they put such ridiculous powerful motors in a no planning boat, he said smiling: I guess clients like to make a big bow wave.

http://www.menorquinyachts.net/en/index.php
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  #26  
Old 04-23-2006, 08:28 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Thanks Tad for the pics

Tad, you made my day and proved a point with long range trollers. I do thank you.
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  #27  
Old 04-24-2006, 05:34 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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It is funny comments were only on the humoristical part of my post, and no one commented the paper from N Irens who compared his own design rangetec and Ilan voyager with a typical planning production boat Bavaria 33.

Another point, 80% of power boats are outboards planning hulls. The worst efficient engine on the worst efficient hull. So most powerboat owners clearly look for something other than fuel efficiency.
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  #28  
Old 04-24-2006, 06:02 AM
FAST FRED FAST FRED is offline
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Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big dock & room for O'nite stop .
"Of course, with jobs being as insecure as they are now, even those making good money might take an interest in nautical practicality."

With unemployment as low as it is today EVERYONE , but the "Professional Victims" are employed as much as they wish, as long as they wish.

"Lately too, there have been a lot of megayachts hitting the market. Maybe that's a not-so-subtle statement in favor of economy."

It sure IS ,,, When the lowly 135 fter is tossed out for the 165fter that can reach 40K cruise it definatly sez somthing about how fine todays economy in the US is , even for lowly boatbuilders.
At this time ALL the premium builders like PJ in the USA and Abiking & Rassmussen in old europe are booked SOLID for the next 5 years,

" Optimum cryusing speed of all vessels are within about a half a knot. Whose fuel bill would you rather pay for 3 or 4 months to a year of cruising considering all have the same approximate amenities?"

With about the same HP required for pushing water aside , at the same SL, the only difference in fuel bill would be an extra 2 hp for every extra ton of amenities displaced.

The fuel bills will be almost identical , tho the noisemaker on the GB running the air cond , water maker and keeping the huge freezer cool will drink from the fuel tank a tad.

I would rather pay for a bit of extra displacement drag than drink warm beer and eat canned "food". Once the amenities are equal , the fuel bills will be too.

FAST FRED
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  #29  
Old 04-24-2006, 08:08 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Different tack

Ok Fred, Let's look at another issue rather than costs of fuel. Crude oil is a finite commodity in nature and the US uses 25% of the refined product according to Wall Street Journal statistics. Also forcasted by the financial gurus is the strong possibility of fuel rationing in the not to distant future. I expect to see it in my life time and I'm 68. We've experimented with biodiesel from used refined vegetable cooking oils in my boat, but what are the megas going to use? I take great comfort that I can isolate myself from OPEC, Exxon-Mobile and others> I also believe that, in time, the average boater will be looking more toward economy of operations rather than wasting fuel that they can't get. I wonder how high the pile of ground up fiberglass will get. As a classic example, GM iand Ford are in dire straights from still tryuing to sell huge SUV while honda and others are sailing along with economy cars. In 2007, foreign car makers are re-introducing the more efficient diesel car models. The trend is already being set. In 2007 I'll probably trash our new Caddy and buy a diesel for which I can make my own fuel. This also could very well be the future of boat design for those that would rather use their boats than be forced to have them sit at the dock.
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  #30  
Old 04-24-2006, 09:09 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Design criteria that matches troller types

The design criteria that would be attractive to those who buy trawlers and mini tugs is basically of the "sit back and enjoy the scenery" type. I europe we see efficient motorsilers and power boats, in the US it's the mini-tugs and trawlers. Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, fuel capacity. The criteria that bears examination is (1) efficient hull and adequate accommodation design, (2) low power requirements, (3)large tankage capacity for both fuel and water and (4) possibly sail assist for down wind. In the power mode, this would equate to a double ended troller style hull.
Given a production boat with these qualities, it would seem that there would be a strong market of previous tug/trawler owners as well as those just entering that market. Of course, acceptance of the design is the same as acceptance of any other boat and depends on the approach to the market place through presence at boat shows, magazine advertisements and demonstration, plus favorable unpaid media attention.
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