Tour boat design help needed - low wake, high speed, shallow draft ... oxymoron

[yodani]

Hi there,

I have been following this forum for a few years now and this is one of my first posts. I have knowledge about boats, hulls, engines and a lot of other things. First of all I am river-lake guy and I am based in the Danube Delta where I operate a few tour boats, tugs and floating hotels.

At the moment I want to add to the fleet a couple of tour boats but they should be kind of do it all type so I need some help from you in choosing the hull type, engine etc. So here are the requirements:

1. Boat size - 10m x 3m with flat deck like a pontoon boat
2. Shallow draft - 40-60cm
3. Cruising speed - 40-50 km/h
4. Low wake
5. Hull speed - 10-12 km/h
6. Load capacity - 15-20 passengers
7. Hybrid propulsion with 2 hours autonomy in electric mode at low speed - 4-6 km/h
8. It should be able to take waves up to 1 - 1.5m on a river.


So as you see this is kind of an oximoron boat but when a man has a dream...

My research on the internet brought me to this combination:

Mship hull- http://www.mshipco.com/commercial/moreinfo/utilityworkboat.html

this one I know is doubtful as it sounds too good to be true but I have seen some videos with the boats they have designed for Venice and the wake was much lower than on a similar traditional planning boat. Also another reason I chose this is because the hull was chosen by Duffy Electric Boats and is used successfully in 3 models so it must be efficient too.

The engine... now here is a hard decision. What I really like is the Steyr Hybrid system but the price is prohibitive there is another similar system from Nanni but is fairly new and not without problems.

Keel cooling is also on my list...

Outboards came to my mind but the cost effectiveness becomes a problem here together with longevity. The boat will usually put around 500 hours a season (that's 6 month) so I would not want to change the engines every 4-5 years.

The boats run sometimes in shallow water with mud and plenty of weed, a killer combination for fragile outboards. - can anyone advise?

Another dilemma for me is the propeller and transmission. The most durable and shock resistant is direct shaft drive but for this design is not easy to implement - advise appreciated.

Stern drives are nice on paper but expensive to purchase and maintain. I keep on hearing horror stories from friends and reading on the internet.

Surface drive... forget that with weeds on the way and hybrid drive.

I have also thought of buying a power tritoon with a big outboard as this would be the cheapest combination but I have some gremlins saying noooo.

I could go till tomorrow about my dreams but I will stop here and would appreciate some advice from anybody with experience on shallow water boats that have to endure a lot and be, fast and efficient. Keep in mind the boat will be used mainly in a nature reserve.

Find at this address my current boats used successfully for the past 40 years... but they are slow www.ibis-tours.ro

[Mr Efficiency]

You may have found a use for the old Hickman Sea Sled after all these years, certainly the low wake requirement should be met, a nice stable rectangular platform too.....not sure how you beat the weeds, remember those weedless props for outboards, Merc had them, just a couple of random thoughts........

[Alik]

That's an interesting task.
I believe 10x3m catamaran can work, with twin jet outboards (speed likely to be 25km/h then).

[Alik]

Look at this cat also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpVl58EYDQM
15kts with twin 40HP outboards

[michael pierzga]

Have a look at Nigel Irens .. very elegant, light displacement , low powered craft

http://www.nigelirens.com/ldl/index.php

[Alik]

Originally Posted by michael pierzga

Have a look at Nigel Irens .. very elegant, light displacement , low powered craft

http://www.nigelirens.com/ldl/index.php

This concept won't work with such payload, on specified length.

[michael pierzga]

Also might be intersting to investigate the MUD MOTOR concept for propusion. Very simple underwater drive gear for river work.

http://www.tristateperformancemudmotors.com/

[yodani]

Thanks for replies guys

@ Mr Efficiency - The inverted V hull is a great concept but it seem to work only with ventilated props (surface drive) from what I have read so this complicates the things. The concept is great and the M-hull seems to have got aaa looot of inspiration from here check the picks I found...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...-vee-scan4.jpg

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...-vee-scan4.jpg
http://www.mshipco.com/images/fast_water_taxi_lg.jpg



Do jet-drives suffer as bad from cavitation due to air trapped under hull?

@Alik - The catamaran hull will work but when loaded it might get too deep in the water and the wake will be big. A 3 m wide catamaran is not so easy to develop ...I guess have no clue what I'm talking about )

@michael pierzga- as Alik said this hull will not be efficient due to the size requirements. The hull is great but not so practical for this application.

The mud motor you have mentioned is a great piece of equipment but not a good solution for a tour boat as it is hard to steer and control plus it is noise.

Meanwhile I came across this jet tour boats http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVThkp1ih3E

I know they are overkill for my purposes but would such concept work for the IV hull or an M hull?

This little jet boat has really impressed me as I have never thought a jet could do that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHgGxmY2H3M

What do they do differently to make that boat run like that? What is that patent pending invention as they are using standard turbines ? I guess I should head with this question to the Jet Boat section of this forum...

Tanks and keep the ideas coming...

[michael pierzga]

Try googling Venice ferry boats or tour boats. Not long I read an article on " Low wake" tour boat design for use in the Venice Lagoon .

[Perm Stress]

Originally Posted by yodani

Hi there,

I have been following this forum for a few years now and this is one of my first posts. I have knowledge about boats, hulls, engines and a lot of other things. First of all I am river-lake guy and I am based in the Danube Delta where I operate a few tour boats, tugs and floating hotels.

At the moment I want to add to the fleet a couple of tour boats but they should be kind of do it all type so I need some help from you in choosing the hull type, engine etc. So here are the requirements:

1. Boat size - 10m x 3m with flat deck like a pontoon boat
2. Shallow draft - 40-60cm
3. Cruising speed - 40-50 km/h
4. Low wake
5. Hull speed - 10-12 km/h
6. Load capacity - 15-20 passengers
7. Hybrid propulsion with 2 hours autonomy in electric mode at low speed - 4-6 km/h
8. It should be able to take waves up to 1 - 1.5m on a river.


So as you see this is kind of an oximoron boat but when a man has a dream...

My research on the internet brought me to this combination:

Mship hull- http://www.mshipco.com/commercial/moreinfo/utilityworkboat.html

this one I know is doubtful as it sounds too good to be true but I have seen some videos with the boats they have designed for Venice and the wake was much lower than on a similar traditional planning boat. Also another reason I chose this is because the hull was chosen by Duffy Electric Boats and is used successfully in 3 models so it must be efficient too.

The engine... now here is a hard decision. What I really like is the Steyr Hybrid system but the price is prohibitive there is another similar system from Nanni but is fairly new and not without problems.

Keel cooling is also on my list...

Outboards came to my mind but the cost effectiveness becomes a problem here together with longevity. The boat will usually put around 500 hours a season (that's 6 month) so I would not want to change the engines every 4-5 years.

The boats run sometimes in shallow water with mud and plenty of weed, a killer combination for fragile outboards. - can anyone advise?

Another dilemma for me is the propeller and transmission. The most durable and shock resistant is direct shaft drive but for this design is not easy to implement - advise appreciated.

Stern drives are nice on paper but expensive to purchase and maintain. I keep on hearing horror stories from friends and reading on the internet.

Surface drive... forget that with weeds on the way and hybrid drive.

I have also thought of buying a power tritoon with a big outboard as this would be the cheapest combination but I have some gremlins saying noooo.

I could go till tomorrow about my dreams but I will stop here and would appreciate some advice from anybody with experience on shallow water boats that have to endure a lot and be, fast and efficient. Keep in mind the boat will be used mainly in a nature reserve.

Find at this address my current boats used successfully for the past 40 years... but they are slow www.ibis-tours.ro

Hovercraft on an air cushion with flexible skirts.... payload and quietness still open question....

[yodani]

Originally Posted by michael pierzga

Try googling Venice ferry boats or tour boats. Not long I read an article on " Low wake" tour boat design for use in the Venice Lagoon .

Yeah I am familiar with all that and have read the article found at this address called
Re-engineering the Venetian Taxi Transportation System: Efficiency Improvements That Reduce Moto Ondoso

It is an interesting read for those looking into low wake, efficient water transportation. At present I read almost all the data available about the M-hull but I only found one review of this hull used in a fishing boat..I don;t seem to find and this one here...http://www.boattest.com/Resources/vi...px?NewsID=3246

The Hovercraft is out of the question as it is not an efficient concept for this task.

[Alik]

Originally Posted by yodani

@Alik - The catamaran hull will work but when loaded it might get too deep in the water and the wake will be big. A 3 m wide catamaran is not so easy to develop ...I guess have no clue what I'm talking about )

Our popular ferry/dive cat design is 10x3.3m.

[yodani]

Originally Posted by Alik

Our popular ferry/dive cat design is 10x3.3m.

Nice cats you'v got there. What would be de cost of such hull and what about the wake and draft?

Thanks,

Daniel

[PlaningWheel]

The boat can be seen at:
http://www.coldgold.rotoquad.com
click on 4 Wheel Drive Boat.

[yodani]

Originally Posted by PlaningWheel

The boat can be seen at:
http://www.coldgold.rotoquad.com
click on 4 Wheel Drive Boat.

Nice futuristic idea but not practical at all. Did you try it?