Terminology Question: Capsize

[AJMCZE]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the media and curious about something...does the term "capsize" require a boat to completely overturn, or simply to tip over. Doing stories about the cruise ship accident and want to make sure we use proper terminology. I always thought overturning completely was "turtling," and that capsizing was reaching perpendicular status to the water (i.e. the mast touching the water).

Appreciate the response!

G

[hoytedow]

Welcome to the forum.

I consider the CC to have rolled on its side with hitting the bottom having arrested it from capsizing. If the stacks or in the case of a sailboat, the masts, touch water it would qualify as a capsize as I understand it. The CC listed and rolled and would have capsized had the submarine topography been not stopped it.

Just my opinion. Many others here are more qualified.

[hoytedow]

See http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ope...hip-41313.html

and Costa Concordia, 80 deg list, really scary !!

[jehardiman]

A total capsize implies that the vessel is still afloat. The Coasta Concordia did not capsize, it rolled due to grounding...but in open water may have capsized due to loss of waterplane area. The The "SS Poseidon" of the film "The Poseidon Adventure" capsized, the WingNuts capsized in the Chicago to Mackinac race. Different things.

[Ad Hoc]

In addition to JEH's post, there is also "founder". Which is perhaps what you had in mind, to sink?..ie remain under the water and come to rest on the sea bed, unlike a capsize which as JEH points out, is still a floating vessel.

[michael pierzga]

On sailing yachts I consider it a capsize when the yacht is heeled beyond the limit of her positive stability. That would be at 120 degrees heel or greater for most boats.

Perhaps this document from ORC will help clarify

http://www.orc.org/rules/Stability%2...ion%202010.pdf

[Submarine Tom]

Of course you can also scuttle a ship/boat, that is to sink it on purpose by holing it in some way.

Good for you AJMCZE to do your homework.

-Tom

[philSweet]

Considering the lack of info on the cause of the accident and sequence of events early on, I don't think there was anything wrong with using the term capsize by the media. Now that more is known, it may not be the best description going forward. I think in most peoples minds, capsize just means upside down due to a roll over. It doesn't really carry any connotation as to cause or blame; and that makes it an attractive term to a liabilty obsessed media.

Is there any really short description that improves upon capsized? "appears to be foundered in the shallows...." is a bit wordy and would not be very helpful to a lot of people. If a photo accompanies the article I see no problem at all.

[hoytedow]

I think "heeled over" would be accurate.

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by AD Hoc

In addition to JEH's post, there is also "founder".

Originally Posted by hoytedow

I think "heeled over" would be accurate.

Heel would be a better term, but even experts sometimes use roll, list, and heel somewhat interchangably though they are not. (AJMCZE, if you want those terms defined we can).

The best way to describe the Costa Concordia's condition is that she is wrecked, lying on her starboard side at a 80 degree list, after alliding with a reef and being grounded to avoid sinking.

[Submarine Tom]

Port side?

-Tom

[jehardiman]

Originally Posted by Submarine Tom

Port side?

-Tom

I didn't have my rock with me.

[FranklinRatliff]

Originally Posted by hoytedow

I think "heeled over" would be accurate.

I like heeled over. Maybe heeled over in an 80 degree list?

[BATAAN]

Heeled precariously, listing at an extreme 80 degrees?

[jehardiman]

But heeled is the wrong term. Heel implies a temporary angle caused by applied force such as wind, cargo rigging, maneuvering, passenger movement, etc. List is a constant angle caused by weight such as cargo or tankage (or flooding, flooding just being a tankage weight you don't want were you don't want it). A stranded ship, partialy afloat, could be considered heeled. But the Costa Concordia is downflooded and permanently listing. The single word proper term for her is wrecked.