Submarine Project

Uses -- Curious

KC135DELTA;

I've been interested to follow this thread - most of the participants (and I) have moved along from outright skepticism to a sort of "well,...if he's going to do it, how can we solve some of the basic problems....." which approach is one of the great assets of this site.

I'm an ex- Physics major, so can roughly tag along, but I certainly don't have the expertise to address the challenges you've presented. But, to the extent that I can think about the issue, maybe you can help me out by refiining my understanding of just what you want to do with this vessel. (?)

It seems that you are, to some degree, breaking the mold: we're all loosely familiar with subs that are combat vessels and subs that are recreational vessels. Most of the comments given are grounded in a normative association with one of these two. But it sounds like you're on to something else: just what is it?

You've described that you want to use the vessel to travel across the No. Atlantic - what's your destination, and what are you going to do with the sub when you get there? -why the particular interest in a sub?

Best regards,
JPC

 

Yes, $15M, that's correct and approximately the rough overhead cost for a project of this size; say 20% of final construction because most of it is COTS, no shock, no NCE. In the R&D world, design is 40-50% of final cost and steel is cheap. It is system integration that is expensive, and if you don't know what you are doing, rework is even more expensive so pay for the design work up front.

5 years is also correct, as it will take 2 years just to do the SI and get all the plans/calculations done for a one off pressure hull. We think we have a hatch design that will work, but most likely will build that section first and then full scale test it for approval prior to incorporation into the simpler part of the hull.

There are very few design offices that have experience in submarine design. Most of the commercial vehicles are submersibles, not submarines. The difference is critical in this application. The team I think I can put together have designed and built 7 R&D submarines and bring about 25 years experience apiece to the table. We know what can be done, how much it will cost, and how long it will take to build something like this in an established yard.

As I said, money is the only problem, as you may have to entice some of these guys out of retirement back into the pressure cooker world of design and build. Yeah, you can hire inexperienced people cheap, but you also pay for that in redesign and rework. Better to buy the talent up front.

 

I'm alittle skeptical myself, you want 15,000,000 before I even see a picture? You also say design is 40-50% of the cost? so your telling me you can build a sub to spec for 30-40million? I'm somewhat interested, yet still questioning it. Do you have any pictures of these guy's past projects?

 

KC135delta, I'm far more skeptical about you than I am about the cost.

What I said is $15M is 20% of an approximate $75M cost. Final cost may be higher (or not), we need to get a full set of TLR's.

If you are ready to get serious, lets take this off-line. You can get ahold of me, through this forum or just check the Washington State PE website. This is going no further without a written RFP from you. "If it can't be read, it ain't been said".

 

KC, if you're serious about this project, then jehardiman is right- there will be big up-front costs, and you will need an experienced and talented design team. You have your heart set on a sub, you know where you want to take it and what you want to take in it. Your next move would be to draw up a complete list of your requirements and wishes, put it in writing, and figure out what you must have and what compromises you're willing to make. Then you'll be ready to request proposals from established, experienced sub design teams. The terms of all good design teams will be similar- there will be a hefty sum up front to get the ball rolling, and there will be at least two years on the computer before anything is presented to potential builders- who will take at least another two years, if they're quick, before sea trials can begin. So be prepared for a long, expensive, but very fun and certainly unique project!

 

More picture for inspiration

These are stuff from weblink of my previous post

 

"Obviously diesel electric, single screw and I was hopeing to get 20knts (atleast) on the surface and 10knts (atleast) underwater."

All the subs I have tracked werefar faster underwater than surfaced. On the surface you pay the price for wavemaking , submerged its mostly skin friction.

Unless you have been on a diesel sub snorkeling I'm not sure you are aware of the pain.

The hull is a huge penlum chamber the diesel sucks air from to operate.
The snort simply allows air to enter and shuts when water covered.

The result is the crew is at sea level pressure ONLY in the smoothest water , mostly the inside cabin pressure bounces from sea level to 5000ft or even 12,000ft when snort shuts before the engine throttles back..

Not a grand family experience.

Underwater propulsion requires stored or made energy , tons of batteries , or a small nuke.

FAST FRED

 

True enough. To which I would add: for various reasons, including Fred's point about the air pressure, it's extremely rare to see a non-military diesel sub that can snorkel. Not only must you keep the snorkel a perfect distance above the waves at all times, but a snorkeling sub is a major menace to navigation as far as surface ships are concerned. It takes a really skilled pilot to make good use of such a rig, and the sub has to keep out of the way of surface traffic- which can't see it. Virtually all private submarines are electric-only while submerged; the rest use Stirling closed-cycle engines (VERY expensive).

 

I am not a submarine builder but I have a lot of books about submarines. Every book is full of accidents and bad design ideea. I lost myself a little submarine model into the water. It was a simplified copy of the U-505 submarine from Chicago

But the designers learn from their mistakes. If you look on modern USA, French or Russian submarine you can see the look is as simple as posible. A modern submarine body is divided in 2 parts: the external body containing the water tanks and other equipement and the sealed body where the human beeing should survive. Every pipe going outside from the sealed body is a posible weakenes. This double layered model of construction keep thinks as secure as posible. That way a designer will always be thinking twice when he decide to break a holle into the sealed body to outside body. Having windows into a submarine looks great but your design is closer to an old submarine where there was only one body including everything and this was proven a terible mistake in the past...

You may say there are submarines with windows. Yes there are but those kind of submarines have a verry little autonomy and they are lunched from a ship. Everybody over here talk about the water pressure. Another big problem for submarines are ... the waves. When a submarine emergence from water the waves action is usual more dangerous than the constant force from the water pressure at 300 ft. When building your windows think about this. It's like you will have a window into the hull of a ship...

And yeah still laughing of those windows beneath the submarine from your designs Wellydeckhand. Have you ever seen a submarine emerging from water? Think about and you will see what I am talking about... Only a good steel will rezist to that knock.

As from propulsion the best solution is a nuclear reactor The problems with
electric/diesel engines are the same from the past. Big and dangerous batteries (don't forget they are function into a close enviroment), the snorkel mentioned by the marshmat.

And supose you build such a submarine. You will need a good team. Those man are trained years to use a specific submarine model.

I belive some Jules Verne books still remain a dream for one person...

 

Suggestion: If you want to see the innards of a D-E mil sub, drop by Halifax sometime. Lying partly dismantled in the Navy drydock will be one of the four D-E subs we bought from Britain (that Britain didn't want... wonder why) that are constantly breaking down or being refitted .

 

this is interesting :

1959 The first moon foto by Moon III mission
1960 The first submarine travel around the world (American submarine Triton).

 

Marshmat you are a happy person to see every day something like this My country has only one submarine, "The Delphin", a '80 model made by Russians...

 

Hey Kc, As in poker, I am prepared to pay to see your hand. Not the $50 million or thereabouts that you say you will blow on this folly but say $50 Australian. You prove that you are dinkum and I pay you; if you can't, then you pay me.
We are all playing along with you, and it has been a fun thread to follow, but a few readers might believe that this might actually eventuate.
My opinion is that there is 0.000% chance that you will even pay for a preliminary sketch from a qualified designer!
I know I am right as there are huge flaws in your logic, as revealed gradually in your own postings.

 

Sounds like a pipe dream. ('cuse the pun)
Or,too much easy earnt money,indulgence, and little grasp of the physics.
WTF?.....dreams are free.....

 

.....dreams are free.....

Not So , thats why most gov invented lotteries,

A Dollar a Dream,

FAST FRED