Striking a Balance in Design.

[tom kane]

How could you add anything beautiful to this floating investment. A Flotell,
for Tourist`s, Drinks and dinner on a Harbour cruse. Would there be any point?

[viking north]

Here in Canada the random, marine survey (insurance requirement) and the yearly insurance policy alone $10,000 to $12,000 a year not including haulout,storage,maintenance, and launching sure puts grey skys on such an investment. We wanted to provide free canoes, rowboats, at our ocean front B&B and our insurance company informed us they would cancell our policy if we did so. We enquired on insurance coverage,over $10,000 a year, and an additional $10,000 for coverage on our sail boat if we decided to do boat tours. So beauty $$$$$ is in the eyes of the lawyers, banks and insurance companies in this case

[PAR]

A use are your own risk sign will eliminate your canoe and rowboat problems. Also a non-liability clause in the guest contract, will eliminate any issues that might arise.

[viking north]

Ya PAR that's basically what the B&B association was looking at but as you know nothing is sue proof and it's not the fear of losing the case but the cost of defending oneself--so we thought about another route--Sell the customer the boat, (replaceable price) with a receipt, buy it back when returned. Christ we live in a messed up(kind words) world, makes one want to live in a log cabin as a hermit or sail away into the vastness until the ticker makes it's final beat. Anyhow didn't mean to swerve the thread too far off course, but as in house construction/renovation dealing with the customer in boatbuilding is sometimes a fine line between kiss ass and holding ground. One of the pro's of getting old in both fields is kiss ass is no longer an option --Geo.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by PAR

. . . Though a reversed sheer makes more practical sense, offers, more internal height at midship, lowers the windage at the bow, offers more hiking room, before wet butt syndrome appears, etc., you just don't see it much because of accepted conventions. I wouldn't consider this a conflict with aesthetics and efficiency, but just mass acceptance . . .

Originally Posted by u4ea32

. . . Commercial boats are generally all about practicality, forget aesthetics . . .

These statements are in conflict. Reversed sheer is not traditional and most things traditional have their origin in the work boats of the past. That suggests regular sheer is a practical design feature on a boat that has to venture out in all weathers.

To me, reversed sheer makes sense and looks “right” on a classical mahogany inboard motor boat intended for flat water use, where the bows lift at speed; it gives you a chance to see where you’re going. Reversed sheer on a sailboat, with the sails forcing the bows down into a choppy sea is another thing altogether.

[Jeremy Harris]

Originally Posted by PAR

A use are your own risk sign will eliminate your canoe and rowboat problems. Also a non-liability clause in the guest contract, will eliminate any issues that might arise.

Not here it won't. The law here would preclude any such notice from removing or reducing the liability, unfortunately. The only glimmer of light at the end of this tunnel is that the law also requires a test of "reasonableness", but that comes down to the whim of a jury............

[viking north]

And when it comes right down to it thats probably the case everywhere especially where irresponsible greedy citizens and ambulance chasing lawyer mentality is concerned.
Ok back on track-- balance in design-- how long has the reverse (forward) sloping windshield been a part of pleasure boat design. Don't recall this feature on older designs say anything before the 1960's other than on a few commerical applications. Older designs generally had the standard aft slope and possibly more often the straight (vertical) glass. I'm thinking here on the Hann motorsailers and alot of so called commuter powerboats. While on the topic of older- does anyone have a collection of Rudder Magazines they would like to sell.---Geo.

[u4ea32]

I really like these. An actionable philosophy for "balancing" the needs of the client.

Originally Posted by DCockey

1) Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. And opinions of beauty can change over time.

2) Different folks make different tradeoffs between appearance and other attributes in their choice of boats, clothing, cars, houses, pets, spouses, etc. Attributes other than appearance matter in greater or lesser amounts to different people.

3) Many folks try to make a statement, to themselves or others, of who they are with their choice of boats, clothing, cars, houses, pets, spouses, etc. And sometimes it is an attempt to set themselves apart from some group.

4) Another factor for many people is "fitting in". They don't want to stand out and be noticed because of my choice of boat, clothing, car, house, pet, spouse, etc. Or they don't want to be criticised.

I worked in the auto industry. One day someone said that the epitome of someone who doesn't care about the car they drive was a college professor driving an old Saab. I strongly disagreed. Many college professors who drive old Saabs drive them in part because they want to be seen as, or view themselves as, the type of person who would drive an old Saab. Or they drive an old Saab because it will help them "fit in".

[ancient kayaker]

Speaking of

Originally Posted by viking north

. . . ambulance chasing lawyer mentality . . .

- Manitoba recently performed a controlled release of floodwater to save downstream homes but putting a smaller number of homes at risk. Within 24 hours there was a lawyer setting up a class action against the government despite the announcement of compensation plan. In the event no homes were damaged although farmland was flooded. No doubt the lawyer will now sue for loss of income . . .

[Poida]

Viking North - I assume that you realise that reverse sloping windshields do have a function and not just for looks.

[viking north]

Yes, that was discussed in detail on a thread not so long ago, I was just curious when the design came into general use on pleasure boats as it certainly would fall into striking a balance between looks and function. (personally I don't find it appealing on a pleasure boat, too commercial looking but thats just my taste, I,m sure it's been a common topic between designer and customer)---

[Poida]

Yeah Viking, I mentioned earlier that the customer is always right, if a client wants a work boat looking pleasure craft, what's the problem.

So as a designer you don't get to sell the curves and the features you want, it is probably because you can't design a boat with the features your client wants.

Or, they need a course in marketing.

Sounds like a John Cleese skit. How to sell things the client doesn't want.

[viking north]

The problem in giving in to what would be a poor design or poor looking design is the designer ends up wearing the hat regardless of the perswasive dollars involved and as such the line in the sand that has to be drawn. As a past builder,I've made my best money modifying and correcting customer controlled designs in which the designer was labelled by the customer as the bad guy. As the old saying goes you pay now or you pay later---Geo.

[ancient kayaker]

In a different field, I designed an electronic equipment years ago with a simple, easy-to-understand status display, but one of our customers had written his specification a different way that was much harder to understand. I couldn't dissuade him to change so that's what he got. My original design acquired a translation circuit added for just for that customer, which came to be know as the Status Obfuscation Device - acronym SOD. Every time I visited his company I got complaints from his staff but I just kept quiet.