Solar and wind turbines on vessels?

[emrtr4]

How reasonable would solar panels or wind turbines be at sea to power a large maritime electrical operation? I am looking for an energy source (trying to lessen dependence on ever increasing oil costs) that on a large vessel (100m>) can provide an efficient means of creating electricity.

I have seen some designs for (the orcelle) vessels that use these clean energies to create power while underway, but I am interested in energy sources that can create power while the vessel is moored or anchored.

Thanks

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by emrtr4

How reasonable would solar panels or wind turbines be at sea to power a large maritime electrical operation? I am looking for an energy source (trying to lessen dependence on ever increasing oil costs) that on a large vessel (100m>) can provide an efficient means of creating electricity.

I have seen some designs for (the orcelle) vessels that use these clean energies to create power while underway, but I am interested in energy sources that can create power while the vessel is moored or anchored.

Thanks

I've done a little work assessing a complicated system that attempts to extract energy from wind and waves. Don't know if it's feasible yet - I'm just looking at the ship motion aspects.

From underneath it looks like a giant mixmaster - perhaps it will save energy by mixing pancake batter on an industrial scale!

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by emrtr4

How reasonable would solar panels or wind turbines be at sea to power a large maritime electrical operation? I am looking for an energy source (trying to lessen dependence on ever increasing oil costs) that on a large vessel (100m>) can provide an efficient means of creating electricity.

I have seen some designs for (the orcelle) vessels that use these clean energies to create power while underway, but I am interested in energy sources that can create power while the vessel is moored or anchored.

Thanks

You do not say what you want to do with the power. How much do you want.

Both solar cells and wind turbines are good collectors. The technology is in use in many homes now. You will need batteries and these add weight and sealed are more expensive than flooded batteries.

You really need to provide more details of what you want to do.



Rick W.

[CDK]

Wind turbines on a vessel are difficult to calculate. You must exclude any output obtained by the ship's motion, that you've already paid for by burning fuel. When going with the wind, the ship's motion reduces the generated power, but - at least in theory - the windmill works as a sail.

The math for solar energy is simple:
Your 100 meter ship has 2000 sq.m. surface available for solar panels.
Peak performance is 200 Kw (100 watts/sq. m.), yield on an average day between the tropics 1,6 Mw.
The same amount of energy from a conventional source would need approx. 0,8 tons of fuel, at today's price say $800.
At $500 per sq.m. (some say it's cheaper) the investment would be a million $.
After 3,5 years sailing, the investment has been paid back, earlier if fuel prices keep rising.
The solar energy could be used for propulsion, which would require a 'hybrid' drive, or for auxiliary power. Storing it is not a good idea because of the required space and weight, poor efficiency and high maintenance cost.

Of course there are some minor details that must be considered, like converting the generated DC energy into something more useful like 115/230 VAC, what to do about a superstructure casting an enormous shadow over the solar system and in the polar regions where the solar panels must be tilted to get enough radiation.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by CDK

Wind turbines on a vessel are difficult to calculate. You must exclude any output obtained by the ship's motion, that you've already paid for by burning fuel. When going with the wind, the ship's motion reduces the generated power, but - at least in theory - the windmill works as a sail.

All quite sensible, except the original poster was interested in moored vessels where the ship's motion can be used to generate power.

All the best,
Leo.

[Guillermo]

emrtr4
There are several studies about ships with wind turbines storing energy in the form of hydrogen. We have already discussed about this somewhere else in these forums.
There is at least one ship already working on these principle (http://www.hydrogen-challenger.de/).
Google around for 'wind turbine ship hydrogen' or the like, and you'll find lots of other info like this one:
http://www.windhunter.org/windhunter.html

Cheers.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by CDK

Wind turbines on a vessel are difficult to calculate. You must exclude any output obtained by the ship's motion, that you've already paid for by burning fuel. When going with the wind, the ship's motion reduces the generated power, but - at least in theory - the windmill works as a sail.

It is not clear in the original question if it was for a stationary application as energy collector or for ship propulsion.

Assuming propulsion was intended- The wind turbine provides an efficient means of collecting power from the wind. It is quite easy to build/buy a turbine that will collect much more energy than that required to propel the vessel in any direction relative to the wind. The turbine will create extra drag when the apparent wind is forward of the beam but this will be easily overcome by a correctly sized prop. Clearly there is a problem if there is no wind so storage and other forms of energy collection would be needed to meet commercial schedules.

Heading directly into the wind you could expect to achieve the wind speed through the water so apparent wind is twice windspeed for an easily driven hull/s.

Rick W.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

It is not clear in the original question if it was for a stationary application as energy collector or for ship propulsion.

Hi Rick,
I assumed it was just to collect energy. What that energy would be used for was unclear, as you pointed out.

My graphics came from www.seadov.com who are looking at using the energy from waves and wind to make potable water.

Cheers,
Leo.

[Guest625101138]

Leo
The Seadov concept looks impressive. It is a pity that this idea isn't being exploited in Australia now. All the current systems that I have visited will ultimately use coal for energy so will be significant greenhouse contributers. Although they post that they are building AUD110M ship. Possibly only pilot scale at this price.

They claim average power collection will be 3.25MW on the Gold Coast. I would expect this power level would give the pictured vessel a reasonable turn of speed as well.

Rick W.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

Leo
They claim average power collection will be 3.25MW on the Gold Coast. I would expect this power level would give the pictured vessel a reasonable turn of speed as well.
Rick W.

No. The ship is permanently moored. The original idea (and I'm not sure if the company has changed tack) was to use decommissioned vessels. For example, in my calculations I use the Australian Navy's old supply ship the Westralia. I thought there might be some way of using old single-skinned tankers that are on their way to the scrap yard.

Leo.

Slightly differnt tack
can not see alternative power gen taking off here
Most of the problem is the extreme greed of the wholesaler / retailer in this land of ours
Example, I bought a 4000 watt Trace inverter in 01, for 2900 USA, HERE THE THING WAS 12000 Au dollars
Here you can see 10,000,s of small business='s whose owners are living high on jacked up prices of imports
We have the sun, but we can never afford to harness it
This country is more expesive to live in than any other i have been in, and I have been in 25 over the past 2 years, mainly Eu, where a cabbage is 80 Euro cents(10 dollars here at Woolworths) and a six pack of top beer is 3.60 euro 1/3 price of here

[Pericles]

As ever, questions beg answers and I went looking for solar powered water pumps that operate without moving parts. How about these ideas?

http://www.thermofluidics.co.uk/applications.htm

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M...qFaEykHs&hl=en

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0...hl=en#PPT43,M1

Pericles

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

Slightly differnt tack
can not see alternative power gen taking off here
Most of the problem is the extreme greed of the wholesaler / retailer in this land of ours
Example, I bought a 4000 watt Trace inverter in 01, for 2900 USA, HERE THE THING WAS 12000 Au dollars
Here you can see 10,000,s of small business='s whose owners are living high on jacked up prices of imports
We have the sun, but we can never afford to harness it
This country is more expesive to live in than any other i have been in, and I have been in 25 over the past 2 years, mainly Eu, where a cabbage is 80 Euro cents(10 dollars here at Woolworths) and a six pack of top beer is 3.60 euro 1/3 price of here

In some cases this is true but I just buy it from the USA and get it mailed out if prices here are silly. Solar panels are reasonable in Australia. The motors and controllers are better to come from the US and suffer the high mail/transport cost. Batteries are reasonable in Australia as well.

The worst example I have is Sanyo. They advertise good panels but there seems to be no way of getting them in Australia. When you go to the US suppliers they say they have agreements with Sanyo that limit sales outside US. You can still get around this if you have a good contact in the US.

The other good thing is the current performance of the little Ozzie Battler. Given the economic demise of the US and inflationary pressure in Australia, it is reasonable to conclude that the battler will weigh in heavier than the USD in a few months.

Rick W.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

have been in 25 over the past 2 years, mainly Eu, where a cabbage is 80 Euro cents(10 dollars here at Woolworths)

Ten bucks for a cabbage? Pull the other one d00d.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Leo Lazauskas

No. The ship is permanently moored. The original idea (and I'm not sure if the company has changed tack) was to use decommissioned vessels. For example, in my calculations I use the Australian Navy's old supply ship the Westralia. I thought there might be some way of using old single-skinned tankers that are on their way to the scrap yard.

Leo.

Leo
I understand it is normally moored but I was making the point that 3.25MW would be useful for pushing the vessel from one location to another even if it was only its maiden voyage. Allows the whole vessel to be made in Korea or China and then sailed to Australia to avoid the high construction costs in Australia. I have seen the costs for water projects in Australia and the ship idea looks competitive on a capital basis without making any allowance for the renewable energy aspect.

Rick W.