Small Kayak for Backwater Canals ?

[millionswords]

Bamboo:

there are two types of them, one the hollow and then the solid[not solid really, thick walls]. Managing to get same diameter sticks are a big deal. The bamboo tree grows big on the bottom and narrower on the top. Wonder how these guys at the furniture making find the right stick.

Once I find out how the bamboo sticks are chosen, I can go ahead and procure some. Have to visit the furniture makers once again.

[ancient kayaker]

Is anyone trying to save these marvellous craft? I noted that they are made from several logs, not from a single log as I had assumed, though some may be. In most, the wall thickness looks greater than the dugouts of the Canadian West coast.

Dugout canoes were built by the Salish, Haida, Tlingit and other peoples of the West. Some of those boats are still being built today, but only as projects, not for their original purposes. The boats were carved from a single tree trunk, and many had lovely lines and amazingly thin walls. The outside was carved first, then small holes were drilled to a predetermined depth so the carver would know when to stop cutting out the inside. The boat was still narrower than desired at this stage, limited by the size of the tree. It was filled with water which was then heated with hot stones. The hot water penetrated and softened the wood while the weight of the water forced the boat to open; this was a tricky operation requiring as much experience as the carving. Once it was wide enough it was braced with thwarts and allowed to dry, although not fully as it would tend to split. Decorative carving and painting was then added to complete the boat. The bows and sterns were particularly heavily decorated and a platform sometimes added for observation, fishing or fighting. The first link belongs an organization started by Al Lubkowski, an old friend of mine who moved to Vancouver Island a long time ago; I haven't seen him for many years (he's "the captain"); his big canoe was built from strips rather than a single log; it is now very difficult to get logs of the size required, also the dugouts are heavy, hard to store and rather delicate.

http://www.blackfishwilderness.com/bwho1.htm
http://www.joejack.com/coastsalishhistory.html
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/projec...anoe_tech.html

[ancient kayaker]

I would not think the varying diameter of the bamboo poles along their length, and the difference from one to another should discourage you from building your first boat. The thickest pieces would be needed for the gunnels and keel which determine hull strength and stiffness. On the gunnels, I would place the largest diameter at the bow, and would ensure strength in the cockpit coaming which is stressed by the paddler's weight during entry and exit. If a uniform diameter pole of sufficient size is not available for use as a keel, then you can arrange the thickest part of the keel under the cockpit and lash two lengths together so the keel tapers towards the stems. A series of shorter, thinner poles at the bottom of the cockpit would distribute the paddlers weight. Long, thin bamboo poles would be excellent as stringers to define the hull shape, a somewhat thicker one to hold up the fabric decks (the kingplank).

Afterthought: you can probably join bamboo poles more neatly than lashing, if you hollow out the ends (internode) to accept a strong dowel and use epoxy.

[millionswords]

AK,

My idea of making this Kayak was to go around and do some photography where we can't reach by road. So I need to carry minimal photography equipment in this boat, where would I store them in the Skin-On-Frame types? Will there be a hatch to keep stuff, and reach it while on water? what is your thoughts?

PS: see some of my photographs here.

[millionswords]

Afterthought: you can probably join bamboo poles more neatly than lashing, if you hollow out the ends (internode) to accept a strong dowel and use epoxy.

on the afterthought: I have never seen this happen. The idea seems it might work, dunno if there are any practical difficulties., should check.

Hollowing out the nodes and joining them with Epoxy [Fevicol] should work. But where would I need it in this project at all? Really can't envisage!


Something just like what we plan above right?
Only difference is, I plan it with Bamboo. If I have to choose something close to the willow shown in these pictures below, I think a banyan root would suit.
The banyan root can be twisted and rolled into a circle to form the frames. Dunno how strong/brittle they can be. Bamboo can be made into rings of desired shape.

http://www.shelter-systems.com/gripc...ayakassem.html

aah, I found a bamboo frame! kayak

http://bp2.blogger.com/_yFfmvdFuhnI/...ayak+Frame.jpg
http://antarcticiana.blogspot.com/20...ak-attack.html

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2...01066046hcTxLN
http://bp2.blogger.com/_yFfmvdFuhnI/...wage+Below.JPG

[ancient kayaker]

The boat in the 3rd link was very nice. The ribs look like they were steamed to shape, and the slats for the floor have been split. Notice the way spacer blocks have been used occasionally between a rib and a stringer to avoid over-twisting the stringer. If you are comfortable with those techniques it would hard to imagine a nicer boat. I initially thought that ply frames would be easier than the ribs; you may still require ply forms to help shape the ribs. I know nothing about banyan root, not much of that in Canada! However, whatever you have for the ribs must hold its shape rigidly. Here, thin oak strips are often used, once steamed they become very easy to bend and after they dry out they become stiff and strong again and hold their shape. Ply is easy to cut but not so strong so it has to be deeper, but it is very easy to do. The stringers of skin on frame boats are often screwed to the frames, but the boat in the third link has lashings; if you go that route, take note of how the lashings are done, as that is the correct way. Some people cross over the cord which is incorect.

If ou can get bamboo in sufficient lengths that are fairly uniform in diameter then you do not need to join them, but if they taper excessively you could join 2 poles at their thickest parts, so long as these joints are staggered.

A hatch might be more difficult to make in a skin boat, a pouch with a zip might be easier, but I've not seen either. I often carry a camera with me in a kayak; I don't find the hatches much use for anything that you would want to reach while in the water, although they are fine for stuff that you need once on land, such as camping supplies. I carry a camera in a plastic Ziploc bag usually; it tucks inside the mesh pocket of my floatation vest. I don't know if those bags are available in India though. I also have a screw-top plastic jar that once held a set of emergency equipment (whistle, throw cord, inflatable float-bag etc.) that my smallest camera fits into. Elastic cords on the deck are very useful.

Speaking of floatation vests, I never, ever go out in a boat without one. I have never needed it but it simply isn't worth the risk. I swim like a fish, stay afloat for hours, and can even sleep in the water, but I still take care.

[millionswords]

Certainly not looking to make a poor boat.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

The boat in the 3rd link was very nice. The ribs look like they were steamed to shape,

- here a flame-gun is used. Flames are directed on the bamboo and wiped as often with wet cloth. Once this is done, bend it, and wipe it again. It stays in that shape without any more force or effort. No clamps, no strings either.

and the slats for the floor have been split.

- I wonder why. A thick bamboo bark can be used here, once portion of it.

Notice the way spacer blocks have been used occasionally between a rib and a stringer to avoid over-twisting the stringer.

- The ribs look like have been made by "split barks of the bamboo", instead I would think it is better to use the whole solid parts of the taller part of the bamboo. [refer my picture in page 2, of a furniture.]

If you are comfortable with those techniques it would hard to imagine a nicer boat.

- Comfortable, is a relative question. Compared to wood work, like sawing, screwing, need for right blades and tools, I guess employing the bamboo and lashing and the flame-gun is easier for the first project.

But again, I dont want to land up with a poorly made one like [this one]



I initially thought that ply frames would be easier than the ribs; you may still require ply forms to help shape the ribs.

- Ply frames are an option. But I dunno how to work with them, nor have the tools. Really dunno what tools I require either, gluing them and the use of so many many clamps. Haven't seen a single such clamp here, all my 30 years of life.

I know nothing about banyan root, not much of that in Canada! However, whatever you have for the ribs must hold its shape rigidly. Here, thin oak strips are often used, once steamed they become very easy to bend and after they dry out they become stiff and strong again and hold their shape.

- Just a thought (banyan). Should check how it will suit, will talk to some carpenters and gardeners to know about the banyan root.

Ply is easy to cut but not so strong so it has to be deeper, but it is very easy to do. The stringers of skin on frame boats are often screwed to the frames, but the boat in the third link has lashings; if you go that route, take note of how the lashings are done, as that is the correct way. Some people cross over the cord which is incorect.

- How do u define correct and incorrect?
- lashings are done with bamboo strips, soaked in water, and then wiped with glue. It holds good. Real good.

If ou can get bamboo in sufficient lengths that are fairly uniform in diameter then you do not need to join them, but if they taper excessively you could join 2 poles at their thickest parts, so long as these joints are staggered.

- I have seen same length bamboo often. Should find where to procure them from. Will let you know in a couple of days.

A hatch might be more difficult to make in a skin boat, a pouch with a zip might be easier, but I've not seen either. I often carry a camera with me in a kayak; I don't find the hatches much use for anything that you would want to reach while in the water, although they are fine for stuff that you need once on land, such as camping supplies. I carry a camera in a plastic Ziploc bag usually; it tucks inside the mesh pocket of my floatation vest. I don't know if those bags are available in India though. I also have a screw-top plastic jar that once held a set of emergency equipment (whistle, throw cord, inflatable float-bag etc.) that my smallest camera fits into. Elastic cords on the deck are very useful.

- Mine is a not so little, prosumer camera. Ziplocks are available, and a jar is a good idea - I can get one of those TUPPERWARE tight seal jars to hold some stuff inside.

- Life-Vests yeah, we can get them here. But that will be the most expensive gear I guess, next to the paddle.

Speaking of floatation vests, I never, ever go out in a boat without one. I have never needed it but it simply isn't worth the risk. I swim like a fish, stay afloat for hours, and can even sleep in the water, but I still take care.

- True. i swim good too, I can float and sleep. Better get a vest once I get on water.

[millionswords]

PU, PVC, Synthetic Leather - are available in plenty and easy to procure. Fairy cheap. It can be riveted/stitched perfectly. Would these be good for the skin?

These are used on bags, handbags, duffel-type bags, some footwear, seat covers, and sometimes table cloth. Its soft on top, looks like fake leather, it can stretch, has a diamond shape cloth(cotton) reinforcement below. Can be cut with a pair of scissors, can be sewed together, can be pasted, and riveted either. There are other types which come in various thickness ranging from 0.5mm to 1.5mm, and some times nylon feel fabrics are made too.

Some pictures Under:

[millionswords]

Bending Bamboo:

AK, here is a video that explains every step of bending a bamboo to a desired shape.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...46950791304015

same trick, using a mould - suits best for making our ribs.

http://www.bamboocraft.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489

[ancient kayaker]

For cutting out ply frames all you would need is a jigsaw and a drill.

The correct method of lashing is what I have read. The bamboo strips sound like a good idea, as they dried they would probably shrink.

For the skin material I have no actual experience, I can only recommend doing what I would do and research the Internet. If several sources say something is good, it probably is. Skins can last for decades but may need to be changed if badly damaged. Also you can change it if it doesn't work. A very stiff fabric would be hard to apply without wrinkles, a very flexible fabric would bulge inwards under water pressure. I imagine the best thing would be a moderately stretchy woven fabric that could be heat-shrunk to get out the wrinkles and tighten it after application, then sealed with a suitable paint.

Nice video on bending bamboo. The sand is an old trick used by plumbers to bend pipes. I didn't know the internodals could just be knocked out. I note that the process uses dry heat to form the bend, I am not sure whether the cold water simply cools it or if moisture is needed to maintain the bend. The moisture probably helps to prevent the bamboo drying out too much and becoming brittle. I suspect a lot of skill and experience is used that is not apparent. On a personal note, I enjoyed the chickens in the background, my parents kept several, it reminded me of when I was very young.

I wonder if steaming will work on bamboo; most woods can be steamed, a large diameter tube and a kettle are all that is needed. It has the advantage that the wood is brought to a uniform temperature and many pieces can be prepared in one batch for bending, which would save time for a large number of parts. I'm not sure how bamboo would react to the humidity or if the temperature of the steam would be high enough. An oven would be another way to get temperature control for small parts. There are also electric hot air blowers used for shrinking plastic tubing or stripping paint, which might be easier and less risky than an open flame.

On the matter of clamps, you could use bindings instead, by first drilling holes through the forms for the cord to pass through. I use up to 100 clamps for gluing gunnels to the ply sides of my boats, but I make them not buy them. For small clamps, you can cut a slit along the length of a piece of PVC pipe and then saw it into lengths, about 3/4 to 1 inch long works for me. For a few dollars I get dozens of spring clamps. I have a few proper clamps which are easier to use single-handed for the initial attachment.

[millionswords]

AK - On a personal note, I enjoyed the chickens in the background, my parents kept several, it reminded me of when I was very young.

he hehe - I like them Chickens too, they make a wonderful combination with small puppies around, making the atmosphere very light!! Interesting that you noticed them too, I did.!! I missed to see the bending sometimes and went back to rewind the video!!

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

For cutting out ply frames all you would need is a jigsaw and a drill.

is the jigsaw same as the HackSaw?

The correct method of lashing is what I have read. The bamboo strips sound like a good idea, as they dried they would probably shrink.

Nansen's Kayak was not made of any bamboo strips, wonder why. I prefer the full stick than the strips, because the strips are prone to breakage and rupture.
Nansen's ribs were not made from bent bamboo!


He has made the ribs from Lashing, and small strips to reinforce the lashings. Just lashings - wow!
Should try to make a rib, and test if I can get a hang of the trick. If it works, nothing like it!
The bamboo used is a very small dia culm. It looks like 3/4 to 1 inch diameter.
I can get 15 feet sticks, 10 numbers for less than $6, that is like 150 feet of Bamboo sticks, off which I can throw away some 20 feet and use the rest.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

For the skin material I have no actual experience, I can only recommend doing what I would do and research the Internet. If several sources say something is good, it probably is. Skins can last for decades but may need to be changed if badly damaged. Also you can change it if it doesn't work. A very stiff fabric would be hard to apply without wrinkles, a very flexible fabric would bulge inwards under water pressure. I imagine the best thing would be a moderately stretchy woven fabric that could be heat-shrunk to get out the wrinkles and tighten it after application, then sealed with a suitable paint.

Guess this will be a trial and error run, and will be the most expensive part. Though affordable for the right output. Will start to see and feel some materials in a while.

Nice video on bending bamboo. The sand is an old trick used by plumbers to bend pipes.

Hmmm

I didn't know the internodals could just be knocked out.


Yeah they are brittle like thin cookies. Just pressing by a finger can knock it off. Differs with the size of the culm.


I note that the process uses dry heat to form the bend, I am not sure whether the cold water simply cools it or if moisture is needed to maintain the bend. The moisture probably helps to prevent the bamboo drying out too much and becoming brittle.

The water first cools down the temperature, it retains the bend, it prevents burning of the skin of the bamboo over prolonged exposure to direct heat.


I suspect a lot of skill and experience is used that is not apparent.

Sure does, it is a very patient method.

I wonder if steaming will work on bamboo; most woods can be steamed, a large diameter tube and a kettle are all that is needed. It has the advantage that the wood is brought to a uniform temperature and many pieces can be prepared in one batch for bending, which would save time for a large number of parts. I'm not sure how bamboo would react to the humidity or if the temperature of the steam would be high enough. An oven would be another way to get temperature control for small parts. There are also electric hot air blowers used for shrinking plastic tubing or stripping paint, which might be easier and less risky than an open flame.

Steaming might be easier and much simpler and cost effective and safer like u said. Industrial propane cylinders and guns are hard to procure, under a budget. Though I can rent them for a few days.

For steaming, I just need a GI Pipe [thick alloy metal] with a bigger diameter, say about 4 to 5 inches, and a kettle, which I can make easily. Wonder if bamboo reacts to steaming, and allows bending. The bending is needed particularly for the ribs only. Rest are not a big bend, and can be achieved by manual dry bending.

On the matter of clamps, you could use bindings instead, by first drilling holes through the forms for the cord to pass through. I use up to 100 clamps for gluing gunnels to the ply sides of my boats, but I make them not buy them. For small clamps, you can cut a slit along the length of a piece of PVC pipe and then saw it into lengths, about 3/4 to 1 inch long works for me. For a few dollars I get dozens of spring clamps. I have a few proper clamps which are easier to use single-handed for the initial attachment.

I saw your picture of the PVC clamps, guess that would be easy to make and cheap. Will buy some actual clamps if i start to work with wood.

AK, have a look at this picture, open large.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...1&d=1228547969


Second Image below:

Wonder how the Nansen's ribs hold the shape? with just lashings?

[ancient kayaker]

In the picture of the kayak with the bent ribs, the front edge of the cockpit is a single piece of wood that has been sawn to shape; you can see the grain running straight across.

Although the ribs and cockpit floor of that kayak are bamboo the longitudinal members, stringers, keel and gunnels, are regular wood (lumber) but could be replaced with whole bamboo. The rib to gunnel joint uses a rabbet which requires some carpentry skill, but if you use the Nansen type ribs you would not need that as they are lashed.

The Nansen ribs can distort if the lashings are not very tight indeed, note that several of them have cross ties to prevent them distorting; you can see this in the picture. The trick is to create a series of triangles using cord to stabilize each of the angles.

A jigsaw is a handheld electric power tool, see: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig_saw

If you don't have access to a jigsaw, a small handsaw with a sharp, fine-toothed narrow blade should do the job. Coping saws and fretsaws are commonly used for fine work cutting ply, but the frame will interfere with the cut on large frames so a saw with an unsupported blade would be better.

ps: thanks for the e-mailed picture: nice upholstery, done by the wife I would guess!

[millionswords]

ps: thanks for the e-mailed picture: nice upholstery, done by the wife I would guess! - sure thing!

what decides the weight a Kayak can hold?
I weigh about 100 Kilos, and 5.10feet.

AK, You said you have no personal opinion on skins, but let me put it on the thread, and see if some one else would come with some answer.

1. Why should the skin be tight? without wrinkles - apart from looking good.
2. I have read many suggest, polyester cloth as a skin, would it not leak? How much will the paint coating help?
3. After painting, do people iron the skin?
4. I have seen some video on stitching the skin, and it seems to be a very very patient work, and procedural, does the stitch need to be very accurate to keep the boat water tight? or is it just for making it looking good?

[ancient kayaker]

I am an inch taller and 15% lighter; my canoe is 12 ft x 25" waterline beam. My paddling friend is your weight and 6-5 tall, he was OK in it but found it a little too small.

A boat a little larger should suit you. The choice between long and thin or short and beamy depends on your kind of paddling as mentioned before; a short boat will manage lots of turns easier than a 22 ft sea kayak! Boats with rounded hulls or lots of gentle chines turn easier than boats with a few hard chines which tend to cut into the water and cause turbulence when turning sharply. Make sure there is plenty of room for your feet!

This is probably the wrong forum for help on kayaks, at times I feel lonely! We are almost the only ones posting. So I wouldn't wait for more inputs on the skin. You could Google "skin on frame kayaks" which should get some leads, and then follow the links.

I believe heat shrinking is performed before painting; ironing might damage the paint. Loose skin will sag due to water pressure causing drag which will slow the boat. There is a sealant called Hypalon but I don't know much about it; I think it is used to seal nylon fabric; paint is used with canvas but I've heard canvas is expensive. A cheap plastic skin such as tarp would serve to try out the boat in the water before investing in better quality stuff.

I haven't heard of needing a lot of stitching skin since we stopped using sealskin; a stretchy skin material should cover the smoothly boat in one piece from gunnel to gunnel, and could be tightened by threads running on top of the gunnels. It may need to be slit at the stems (bow and stern edges) and sewn, with a sealant applied. I suspect most people just overlap the layers, tack it and apply sealant. I have read that it is tacked at the gunnels and a wood rubbing strip added over the tacks. Bamboo may be hard to tack, you could check that.

A strip of wood attached as a keel from bow to stern would provide protection against sliding over submerged logs, a common experience in my area, and would discuise the sewn and sealed areas at bow and stern.

[millionswords]

AK,

what is the use of epoxy, and in my case, what would be the use really? would i need it at any stage at all?

1. Should i coat the lashings with epoxy?
2. Should I coat the skin with epoxy?

I get Araldite Epoxy Adhesive, which comes in 2 tubes or two 1 liter containers. Mixing them we get a glue that can be applied on surfaces, which is water proof, resistant proof, and heat proof. I read about Araldite on Wikipedia.