single sailing

[JotM]

Originally Posted by robherc

Love your spirit there; I tend to be REALLY hard to convince NOT to do something, or that I CAN'T do something, just because someone else thinks so.

For what I've been reading, everyone thinks the man can do it. Opinions just differ on how to go about it.

[Capn Mud]

Quote:
How easily can a sailboat of approx. 65 ft be rigged to be single handedly sailed?
With electronics and/or hydraulics, this could be done pretty easily...just a matter of more/different equipment to install & probably a bit more design/build time to get it all arranged how it'll work best for you.

Quote:
Does the rigging get in the way when not in use? Is it just added gear?
This is just a design issue. If you design your system without considering where the lines are running, it'll get in the way; if you pan everything out well in the first place, they'll be out of the way, right where you put them.

Quote:
Can it be set up with electric wenches and pulleys so it can be done with out leaving the cockpit?
Yes, wither way...electronic wenches, or enough pulleys to route all of the lines to where you can easily reach them in the cockpit. May I suggest that if you go with electronic and/or hydraulic winches for your primary system, I would recommend having some form of mechanical back-up system installed as a contingency (but I'm not all that sure you didn't already probably know that yourself).

This is the bit I always worry about with singlehanded sailing (and my dreams are similar to the ones that started this thread). How does one person handle the sails on a big boat like this if the electronics fail you?

Almost every book I have read from round the world single handed sailors includes serious problems with electrical equipment including battery charging and generator problems.

I have read a number of older books (before the age of electronic assisted sailing hoisting and controls) where the authors say something like "... it has been determined that the largest boat that can safely be operated by a single man is 30 foot for sail handling in high wind and sea conditions" (Not a direct quote).

I have always kept this in mine in my dreaming / planning.

What say you wise heads?

Cheers,
Andrew

[robherc]

I think that as long as you gear the winches so 1 man can effectively raise/lower each sail, you can still set it up for single-handed manual backup.
My recommendation would be to use a pulley system to run backup lines for every sail to your cabin & have enough winches & cleats in there to handle them.


Good Luck,
Rob

[JotM]

Originally Posted by robherc

I think that as long as you gear the winches so 1 man can effectively raise/lower each sail, you can still set it up for single-handed manual backup.
My recommendation would be to use a pulley system to run backup lines for every sail to your cabin & have enough winches & cleats in there to handle them.

Dear Rob,

A proper 1-man set-up isn't the issue.
If we would sit down we can probably round up a solution for every horror scenario imaginable. (Or at least for almost every one)
The difference between Bill and Andrew is that Andrew is already thinking ahead. I am pretty certain that Bill will be able to figure out a solution for the problems he might be faced with. The question is, will he be able to create the time and opportunity for himself to do the fixing?

For most land locked vehicles the inherently safe state is stand-still, so when you get into trouble, you stop the powertrain and hit the brakes. That gives you time to think about the next move. In many a situation, like when a sail is stuck up there and the tide is coming in, sitting down and contemplating is not an option. The wind and tide do not have an ignition switch and the boat doesn't have a brake. There is no substitute for knowledge and experience in such a situation. Looking at your answers I expect you to have both of them. But can you please try to remember what you would have done in those days before these two good friends came along?

edit:
@Bill: I would urge you to at least do the cruising primer on US Sail and arrange to sail as a crew member with an experienced sailor a couple of times. The cruising primer will guide you to the novice sailing primer as a prerequisite.

Cheers,

Jaap

[robherc]

Jaap-

I agree very much with you that "proper prior planning is key." I also agree that Bill would do VERY well for himself to BOTH get some sailing experience on someone else's (someone KNOWLEDGEABLE) boat first, AND to start with something smaller.

As far as the setup you're referring to goes, I had intended for the "manual winches, etc." to be run as overrides; preferably using the same cables as the electrical system (or running "trigger lines" to release each sheet from the electrical control system). That way, when the main jams at the top of the mast, you already have your backup line, sheet, winch, and release sitting there next to you, ready to save your a** as long as you have some clue how to use it (I also think, since you wouldn't be using the backup system regularly, that it would be an EXCELLENT idea to label each winch and cleat with WHAT that line is).

I'm not saying that you're wrong in any way, just trying to better describe my intentions.

[JotM]

I already had the distinct feeling we are saying just about the same, just differently expressed.

Originally Posted by JotM

Dear Rob,
A proper 1-man set-up isn't the issue.
If we would sit down we can probably round up a solution for every horror scenario imaginable. (Or at least for almost every one)
Right, many solutions can be found, to use them in a proper manner is the issue!
And for that reason :
edit:
@Bill: I would urge you to at least do the cruising primer on US Sail and arrange to sail as a crew member with an experienced sailor a couple of times. The cruising primer will guide you to the novice sailing primer as a prerequisite.
Cheers,
Jaap

Regards
Richard

Originally Posted by Capn Mud

This is the bit I always worry about with singlehanded sailing (and my dreams are similar to the ones that started this thread). How does one person handle the sails on a big boat like this if the electronics fail you?
Have your winches oversized to a stage that enables you to handle your sails manually with ease.
I have read a number of older books (before the age of electronic assisted sailing hoisting and controls) where the authors say something like "... it has been determined that the largest boat that can safely be operated by a single man is 30 foot for sail handling in high wind and sea conditions" (Not a direct quote).
With todays equipment I would say that 65´is not beyond available facility, but how do you manage to drive a LPG tank truck safely if your knowledge is´nt sufficient for handling a go- cart?
What say you wise heads?

Cheers,
Andrew

Not a wise head (I moved to stinkpots after few years of sailing), but knowledge and experience is the simple answer to all of Bills questions. After some 160.000 nm under my keel and nearly 40 years of sailing (motoring mainly) I have seen many, many technical improvements coming up. Not a single one of them did solve a problem! They all have been just another tool making things easier in the hand of a seasoned sailor. Without a deep and intuitive understanding how to use them to avoid trouble all of us are simply lost!
Every power driven technique fails sooner or later! We have to be able to manage coming home without, or with a substitute, or we will stay at sea, such simple it is.
So learn to do it the simple, basic way, know where your decisions lead you to, then learn how technics can assist you. Never ever, any sort of technology will be a substitution of ability and knowledge out there at sea!
Kindest regards
Richard

[bill coleman]

All, some of you seem to think that I am too slow to see just how deep the water might be before mindlessly stepping in. Would I be asking the questions I pose if I were not in the this to learn....prior to jumping. I will do as I have always done; expedite the process. That does not mean I will do something stupid. I am just crazy; not stupid. I was looking for info on what some of you have already done. Sounds like several have experimented with and accomplished this. That goes back to my learning from your mistakes and not mine. I feel sure from the discussions that the task can be done. I have a lot to find/figure out. I plan on having a hell of a lot of fun doing it. I appreciate the advise. I will be asking many more things. It sounds like some have friendly rivalryes and differiences of opinion. Good. That gives me more to think about, and i think you guys like the bickering and one-up-mans-ship! I started this deraming several months ago. I have a few years years before it will be a reality. That gives me plenty of time to go to nearby lakes and learn some of sailing and to ask a lot more questions to get you all jousting.

Thanks for your advise and time,

Bill

Did´nt want to offend you Bill!
Regards
Ricard

[bill coleman]

Oh, you didn't. I would not even ask any questions if my skin were thin. You spoke true and it is appreciated. I recieved information and good advise. That was what I was seeking. One of my mottos is "don't do anything stupid" That is basically what everyone has been telling me. I am getting old enough to listen. Time was......................

[Somerville]

After 4 pages, no one has posted about the Vendee Globe and the boats that sail in it.


copyright BYMNews
Roxy was sailed by Sam Davies to finish 3rd after many of the competitors dropped out or were forced out by boat damage.

copyright BYMNews
Samantha Davies, 34 yr old British professional sailor

Roxy is 10 yrs old.

No electrical or hydraulic winches, just big ones. The boat ain't comfortable but it is fast.

Or a more moderate design like American Promise that was soloed around the world by Dodge Morgan in 1985 - The Voyage of American Promise Dodge donated the boat to the US Naval Academy after his voyage.




So yes, it is possible to outfit a 60 footer for single handed sailing but it does require extensive knowledge to enjoy sailing one of that size.

[FAST FRED]

The larger the boat (within reason) the easier it is to sail, IF you are cruising not racing and not after that last .01K

Most boats will reach a speed in K of the Sq rt lwl with a minor , almost laughably small bit of canvas. FASTER may take 3,4 5 times as much sail , so simply use any rig that only requires the sails to be rolled up like window shades.

NO there not as "good" as real hank on sails in terms of speed or versatility , but its a CRUISER , so enjoy the modest speeds , and pure lack of work for days on end.
======
Radar reflectors... I flew patrol planes with a radar strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles, and we had a bunch of sailors in the squadron.

On experiment we found the old WWII folding radar reflectors were the best of the lot in terms of ability to pick out , when the seas were up.

Cheap, but only good for a month or so, so buy them in a bunch.

FF

[JotM]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

Radar reflectors... I flew patrol planes with a radar strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles, and we had a bunch of sailors in the squadron.

On experiment we found the old WWII folding radar reflectors were the best of the lot in terms of ability to pick out , when the seas were up.

Cheap, but only good for a month or so, so buy them in a bunch.

What are you referring to? The "radar[s] strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles" or "the old WWII folding radar reflectors"?

Although they're fairly diplomatic about it, I am reading "buy an active radar reflector when you can organise the needed power" in the UK MAIB publication.
Were those included in your experiment too? Or did your radar operate in a different frequency range than the radar scanners used in the commercial fleet? (and thus the frequency at which active radar reflectors operate)

Regards,

Jaap

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by JotM

What are you referring to? The "radar[s] strong enough to pick up a periscope at close to 100 miles" or "the old WWII folding radar reflectors"?

Although they're fairly diplomatic about it, I am reading "buy an active radar reflector when you can organise the needed power" in the UK MAIB publication.
Were those included in your experiment too? Or did your radar operate in a different frequency range than the radar scanners used in the commercial fleet? (and thus the frequency at which active radar reflectors operate)

You bet they aren far beyond from commercial ones..and for a freighter it's enough to see obstacles big enough to make some damage for the ship.. otherwise they aren't interested anything else even if it were visible on the screen.
Seeing anything from 100 miles depends primarly how high you are..

[bill coleman]

[quote=FAST FRED;256097]The larger the boat (within reason) the easier it is to sail, IF you are cruising not racing and not after that last .01K


FF, From my days of operating heavy equipment I can tell you it is opposite of what people think. The larger a bulldozer is, the easier it is to operate. It is a heck of a lot more forgiving of a mistake. It does not jerk you around. You do operate it different. You plan ahead a little further. I had suspected that boats would be the same.

thanks,

Bill