The Secret Of Canoes

[D'ARTOIS]

My mother used to tell me often - when I was a little boy - about the beautiful Canadian Canoe she had when she was young. Made of wood and much more beautiful than the majority of the plastic bunch that floats along our summer residence in France.

Workpressure becomes less and I would like to have for my own grandchildren the so beautiful made crafts as are showed in the photogallery of BearMountain crafts.
For a fast floating river, 2.00 mtrs/sec, eddy's here and there, what will be the best design for general purpose i.e. me, my son and two children, in total 170 kgs plus a bit of gear as extra.
The best I like the Hiawatha design as well as the Trapper? No other name, Redbird.

I am not a canoe expert and I have no idea about their particulars.

Please advise

[icetreader]

There are some websites that specialize in design and building of small paddle craft.
The two that come to my mind are:
www.kayakforum.com and http://www.neilbank.com/phpBB2/ (Old Sparkey forum).
There's also this: http://www.wcha.org/index.html
Don't miss reading the articles John Winters wrote about canoe design-
there are some links to them and others on this page:
http://www.wavewalk.com/COMPARISON.html [and some food for thought :-) ]

[JEM]

There's different ways to build a canoe. Stitch and glue, woodstrip, skin on frame, canvass, all have their tradeoffs.

A couple S & G designs at http://www.jemwatercraft.com

[D'ARTOIS]

Thank you Jem, you have got something I am looking for, however not for my grandchildren. Will contact you by e-mail.

Canoeing is one of the favourite leisures in (or on) the Dordogne River in SW France. In the summertime a nice river, not streaming too fast, and literally 1000's of families daily descend the river in rented canoes. The river goes from deep (4.00 meters) to kneedeep. Engines are allowed till 7 hp. The river is unnavigable for normal boating, the only boat you see is the kayak and canoe. The local fishermen use the pirogue.
The hullshape is for a canoe just as important as it is to any other boat.

There must be a "secret"behind it that makes one design better than just a regular one.

[JEM]

Some random thoughts:

-A rounded bottom will glide better through the water but seem a little more unstable and will not track as well as a hard-chined boat.

-Hard chined simpler to build.

-Hard chined will get pulled around by current more so than a semi rounded bottom

-Beam and beam at the waterline has a lot to do with stability. A boat with a lot of flare (narrow beam at waterline and much beam at the sheer) will seam tippy but have better secondary stability.

-A boat with beam at waterline close to max beam will have little flare and not much secondary stability but will have much more primary stability and feel more solid when you're just sitting upright.

-How "full" the hull is has a lot to do with stability. If the boat reaches its max beam closer to the ends and maintains that width throughout the main body, then it will be more stable. If the max beam is acheived only briefly at midship and then immeditely starts to taper down again, it will less stable.

-Wider boats or boats with more wetted surface area generally slower. Longer, stream-lined boats will be faster but not as stable.

-How high you sit off the bottom has a lot to do with stability too. Pirogues are generally paddled by sitting on the floor. Gererally in a canoe, you sit higher up. The higher you sit, the less stability you will have. But sitting higher is generally more comfortable.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by JEM

If the max beam is acheived only briefly at midship and then immeditely starts to taper down again, it will less stable.

But faster. Like JEM said, it's all tradeoffs.

For beginners a flat bottom is best, as it is the most stabile and goes over riffles best. It is easest to climb back into, least roll over.

[D'ARTOIS]

Speed is not the first option, I need just a family canoe, bright and shiny, beautiful design that can be used for small river trips, carrying 500 lbs.
In the winter it differs - than the river becomes viscious, eddys, fast streaming
but ideal for trout, salmon-trout, perch, pike etc. But then I am alone and it has to carry 250 lbs (small engine included)

[JEM]

For a family canoe, make sure you have at least 15' of length. You'll run out of room before you run out of displacement.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Speed is not the first option, I need just a family canoe, ... carrying 500 lbs.

To be more precise, the real issue is speed versus effort. A fast boat means also a boat that's easier to paddle at a more moderate speed. Which, for an old guy like me, is a high priority.

I suggest you stick with the same boat summer and winter. In the winter winds are higher, you are fishing alone, carrying a power setup, the anchor, if used, is heavier,food, clothes and tackle. You will tire faster because you can not get rid of heat as easily, you will paddle into stronger winds. Importantly, tie yourself with a strong line to the canoe. Hypotherma is fatal in swift cold streams. Most important piece of gear in your pocket?? ---------Is a cell phone with a fully charged battery and the #1 pre dialed for emergency assistance. --------Push power ON then PUSH #1 and they know you need immediate help, even if you can not talk. ------- The cell phone is in a clear freezer bag in your pocket by itself. You are alone , take the time to be as ready as a few simple steps can make you. I almost drowned in a 6' wide trout stream surrounded by other people. Steped side ways to leave, foot slipped under a rock, water pressure pushed me back and folded my knees. I could not pull or twist free. I now carry a walking staff of one solid piece tied to my wrist. No one saved me. My fishing rod became my staff to get my mouth above the surface in 55 degree water. It always happens instantly. No correction time. IF at all possible do a down river drift to someone who will let you haul out. Your safety is well worth that persons favorite wine and cheese. Good luck, D'ARTOIS. Browns love 3" to 4" suspended wet brown flies.

[Hans Friedel]

Hi D'ARTOIS

Yes canoes are cool

The Redbird is a bit tippy if you wants to bring kids with you.

Trapper is problably a Swedish company they sold fiberglas canoes to Holland some years ago

www.trapper.se I design for them

Here is a nice canoe that would suit you OK

http://www.friedeldesign.se/bilder/prosp11.JPG

It is a version of the Prospector the underwaterbody is a new design but I tryed to keep the original feeling.

The Original Prospector is a good choise anyhow I would not build anything shorter than 16foot

The new design performs a bit better on flatwater and with light load.

Here is a link to the company who build them

http://www.trakanot.se/ You can actually go to Sweden and build you own canoe

Newfound Woodworks has some nice kits

http://www.newfound.com/

Here are some of my own designs

http://www.friedeldesign.se/kanadensare.htm

Regards Hans

[D'ARTOIS]

Thanks for your answer Richard, yes I started fishing again last year after so many years not practising it. The good fishing is next to La Rocq Gageac, some miles upstream. The Dordogne river can be hell. In 1993 she came alomost 40 ft above her normal level, no more accessible roads and a fortnight isolation. The family owns two farms up in the hills so we had no shortages.
Yes, and than the current. If you are a novice you can easiliy capsize if you come with your broadside to the current.
But I have collected now some info, and next winter or so, my son can start to make the frame. Just now getting the right design.

[D'ARTOIS]

Hello Hans,

Yes, your Prospector I like.

A bit difficult to go to Sweden right now. I have a restoration project on hand that has to be put in motion - that will be done by a contractor, but still I need to monitor it. Although, that ship has to come from Hamburg. Where are you located? If it' s around Malmo I could just do it. But Sweden is quite big, I still remember my trip from Malmo to Goteborg. It seemed without no end.
Otherwise I drop you a mail. Do actually not understand why the French stick to all that ugly PE. I can pick up such a device for little but no, thanks.

[Hans Friedel]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Hello Hans,

Yes, your Prospector I like.

A bit difficult to go to Sweden right now. I have a restoration project on hand that has to be put in motion - that will be done by a contractor, but still I need to monitor it. Although, that ship has to come from Hamburg. Where are you located? If it' s around Malmo I could just do it. But Sweden is quite big, I still remember my trip from Malmo to Goteborg. It seemed without no end.
Otherwise I drop you a mail. Do actually not understand why the French stick to all that ugly PE. I can pick up such a device for little but no, thanks.

Hi D'ARTOIS

Yes Sweden is a bit big. I am located in the middle of Sweden near Stockholm.

But send me an mail, sometimes I go to the south part of Sweden.

Hans