Search for ethics!

[Boston]

way to go Apex
Ive done my share of biz on a hand shake and enough by contractual agreement to know that if your going to get screwed
no amount of contract is going to make much difference

some people are just like that
trick is to avoid them

[troy2000]

Back before I got my contractor's license, I had the minister of a church approach me about replacing all the bunk beds in their summer camp, with new ones that could be easily broken down and stored when the space was needed for other purposes.

I came up with a concept and a price. When I talked to the preacher again he agreed to my price per bunk, but said he needed detailed plans to show the board at his church before he could authorize construction. All I had were rough sketches, so I told him I'd get some finished drawings to him when I could. I was busy, and didn't get to them immediately.

A week or two later, I got a call from another carpenter I knew. He started raising hell with me for not having the drawings done yet, because he was waiting on the plans so he could start building the bunks.....

One of the iron-clad rules I eventually developed during a lifetime in construction: as soon as someone starts dragging God and Jesus into the conversation, it's time to hide my wallet and require payment up front.

The only other people I had trouble with as a group were doctors. They always paid eventually, but were agonizingly slow about it for some reason. I've heard a lot of horror stories about lawyers screwing builders, too. But although they were hard bargainers, the ones I personally dealt with always paid promptly and in full, to the letter of the contract or verbal agreement.

Originally Posted by Boston

way to go Apex
Ive done my share of biz on a hand shake and enough by contractual agreement to know that if your going to get screwed
no amount of contract is going to make much difference

some people are just like that
trick is to avoid them

Absolutely Boston!

[Leo Lazauskas]

I'm more interested in whether we have reached a limit on patents of some geometries.

Just to keep the argument simple for a start, take the example of a symmetric, uncambered, convex airfoil. Would it be possible to patent a new variation of such an airfoil? Or have all possible variations (for IP protection purposes) already been patented?

Of course, a complete vessel is enormously more complicated than a simple airfoil. However, just considering the underwater portion, will we ever reach a saturation point where there are no more patentable hull shapes?

Leo.

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by troy2000

One of the iron-clad rules I eventually developed during a lifetime in construction: as soon as someone starts dragging God and Jesus into the conversation, it's time to hide my wallet and require payment up front.

I'd add Green neo-religions to that list, Mr. Troy2000.

Last year I was asked to estimate the drag and squat of three candidate multihull designs for an electric boat. I quoted $4000AUS (about 37 pesos) which was accepted.

Because they needed the predictions quickly, I stupidly handed over my reports after I received half the agreed fee. It took me several months to get most of the rest of the fee, $500 at a time, and only after I sent copies of my emails to the agent to his head office. I still haven't been paid in full.

Bugger that for a game of (green) soldiers, I thought.
It has been very satisfying to me (in a mean, venal way) to recommend other suppliers of electric outboards. So far the shifty prick who hasn't paid me has missed out on selling eight motors. I might change my mind if I get paid in full, but the word is out that this company and its agents are not to be trusted, and I can't reel that back in.

Leo.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by troy2000

Back before I got my contractor's license, I had the minister of a church approach me about replacing all the bunk beds in their summer camp, with new ones that could be easily broken down and stored when the space was needed for other purposes.

I came up with a concept and a price. When I talked to the preacher again he agreed to my price per bunk, but said he needed detailed plans to show the board at his church before he could authorize construction. All I had were rough sketches, so I told him I'd get some finished drawings to him when I could. I was busy, and didn't get to them immediately.

A week or two later, I got a call from another carpenter I knew. He started raising hell with me for not having the drawings done yet, because he was waiting on the plans so he could start building the bunks.....

One of the iron-clad rules I eventually developed during a lifetime in construction: as soon as someone starts dragging God and Jesus into the conversation, it's time to hide my wallet and require payment up front.

The only other people I had trouble with as a group were doctors. They always paid eventually, but were agonizingly slow about it for some reason. I've heard a lot of horror stories about lawyers screwing builders, too. But although they were hard bargainers, the ones I personally dealt with always paid promptly and in full, to the letter of the contract or verbal agreement.

Aint it the truth , I build a semi circular deck bench for a doctor once . Two days later I went back to take it out and his wife wrote the check . These people also had a collection of plans from contractors . They always told me about the big job they were going to do in the spring .

Its always the dumb contractor that gets bad mouthed while getting screwed. Well sometimes it seems like it .

Frank

[tom28571]

I guess there are a lot of stories in this vein to tell. I had a patent directly infringed by the British Post Office. They hired a guy who knew about my work to try to build a unit that got around the patent. That effort failed so they went ahead and copied my material. My company was in the throes of other greater problems and did not take any action. The company owned my patent so I am not out anything. Just disgusted like others here with the lack of ethics. I have found that corporations are not moral or immoral, they just don't have any morals at all.

And then there is the stupid, asinine, wrongheaded recent decision by our Supreme Court that thinks Corporations are persons? Yeah, when pigs fly.

[narwhal]

Originally Posted by Boston

way to go Apex
Ive done my share of biz on a hand shake and enough by contractual agreement to know that if your going to get screwed
no amount of contract is going to make much difference

some people are just like that
trick is to avoid them

I agree that avoidance is better than action after the fact.

Most of the times when I've been screwed on a contract were when I overruled my own intuition that 'something ain't right here'. Now if I get that nagging thought about a prospect, I put off a decision until I can discuss it with my wife, or better yet, get her to meet the guy. Neither her intuition nor mine is perfect, but between us we can smoke out most of the scoundrels.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by troy2000

... I had the minister of a church approach me about replacing all the bunk beds in their summer camp ... [the preacher] agreed to my price per bunk, but said he needed detailed plans ... A week or two later, I got a call from another carpenter I knew. He started raising hell with me for not having the drawings done yet, because he was waiting on the plans so he could start building the bunks.....

Reminded me of dealing with a guy from France who wanted me to write up instructions for a technology he wanted to use in a new product line. Then I was going to be the NA distributor from the product blah blah. We cut a deal, I wrote the manual and waited for the money to start before delivering.

Then I get a call from a Scottish guy who wanted the phone number of the Frenchman. This Scot knew a bit about this technology and was not someone I would have trusted. The money never arrived and the manual was never sent.

... I know the Scot's character quite well and I rather suspect he screwed the Frenchie ...

Originally Posted by narwhal

Most of the times when I've been screwed on a contract were when I overruled my own intuition that 'something ain't right here'. Now if I get that nagging thought about a prospect, I put off a decision until I can discuss it with my wife, or better yet, get her to meet the guy. Neither her intuition nor mine is perfect, but between us we can smoke out most of the scoundrels.

Never let your brain decide in business! Your belly is right!

Or do like I did for many years, have your dog in the room right from the beginning, he will sleep or doze until the crook enters the room.

Regards
Richard

[Wynand N]

If in doubt, always ask for 50% deposit upfront. If the client has problems with that, you will have problems getting your money (balance) when the job is done.

In my case, after burning my fingers a few times, I do the above before touching a job. If the client questions the said deposit, I just walk away from the job. Honest people always pay a deposit upfront without any bother.

That said, IMHO it is usually the gullible that get taken for a ride...

[Alik]

Our policy is simple: while others are trying to copy or steal Your design, just do You best and make better one. This way You are always few steps ahead than 'copiers'.

We experinece some problems with some 'builders' copying molds of our hulls and making their modification. Unfortunately none of them perform without proper without weights control, proper structural design, etc. that they do not have access to. So let them play, this is different market that does not overlap with our market niche

Recently I have seen a copy of Sunseeker 72'(?) built in Thailand. They have copied the shapes and interior styling and are very proud of that. But boat is about 15-20 tons heavier and does not perform. One can see that exhaust made as original is 300mm below waterline - well, they made second set of exhausts higher. Swimming platform is in water and seems that they tried to lift it up it by placing ballast at bow; basically the boat sits bowdown.

So I am not afraid of copying - it always produces inferior products that have no value for serious customers. Yes, such builders destroy the market, but this is another issue...

[hoytedow]

Dogs are great judges of character.

[Boston]

I made the dumb move of presenting my Plasma windows patent to several so called interested parties

Im positive they are stealing it even as we speak

[Leo Lazauskas]

Originally Posted by Boston

I made the dumb move of presenting my Plasma windows patent to several so called interested parties

Im positive they are stealing it even as we speak

In the 15th century, a Russian named Telividenko used to transport paintings and icons on horseback from Kiev to Moscow. You think he gets any credit for inventing the WWW? Phhht.

Leo.