scaling down a submarine?

@Richard,

Thanks, I'm a waterfront engineer by trade. The closest I come to Naval Architecture is designing floats for boat harbors, but I have a great appreciation for the work that NAs perform.

I also have a very strong opinion about the necessity of professional design when constructing anything that can lead to loss of life if it fails.

 

Richard-- I know you have built boats--i respect your experience there-but have you ever designed done yourself?...truly--i doubt you have - because your knowedge about what a drawing is and what a design is tells me you dont do any real design work- before you accuse me of knowing nothing--maybe you should go read some NA books on design yourself...but i guess ill have to explain so you know a bit about what Im doing...

if not designing in CAD- which i don't use- the first thing in boat design is a scaled drawing. this is first roughed out-from there, the design is tweaked- from the rough sketches you then modify the design to a full scale drawing. a model may or may not be built as well...in fact ealry builders used half hull models. they took the lines right from that.
after the scaled drawing is made you then can calculate such things as LCB- block coefficients- weights..approximate the waterline, figure out the righting moments-calculate stability,figure out scantlings, etc etc

Yes Richard--i have designed boats im sorry to shatter your reality about this--am I an NA? ..NO...do I care? --NO...
stop coming on MY threads and tell me and others here that you know me and my work-

i don't do it to you on your threads--don't do it to me...

 

Point being- simplicity and effectiveness needed no modern methods.

 

I respect your opinion..and in some instances --i would agree...but there are other ways to design things- thereby effectively bypassing conventional methods and stamps of approvals etc...
many people have built dangerous things without professional engineering and been successful...but when someone succeeds well then- that's a threat to the conventional. after all an NA would have put in years to gain a degree so he could be stamped "official"? so when a guy can do the same thing in his backyard for less money--and less expertise---then that's a threat. since why would we then need engineers schools etc? if someone is smart and talented in an this area- he needs no engineers. when he isnt --he must consult one...This is where NA's are of value..but that doesn't mean it cant be done just as effectively without the help of one...

i have my own methods of solving problems-
with no offense intended-tell me how much of your actual eng. degree-and be honest- do you actually use day in day out???
i asked the same question to the first mate of ship i was working on--he stated about 10%...

 

I'm a NA with over 10 years of submarine design experience. They're not the kind of thing you can build by eye like something from Scrapheap Challenge. I don't know how long you plan to stay submerged (1hr?, 1day?, 1wk?) but don't take the challenges lightly! I wish you all the best, but I can't see this dream becoming reality...

 

Tugboat I think both you and Bert completely missread Apex1 and this post proves it to me. I don't know why he continues to respond to your posts other than he passionately seems to care. Me, I am not quite so compassionate when it comes to impractical ideas. I look at it this way. $25,000 is fairly low for tuition to learn many things and I think you might as well pay it. Apex1 doesn't think its necessary for you to waste your money. I look at it as tuition not waste. Apex1 cares about your pocketbook, I am not quite as generous.

Apex1 has said he is a boat builder not a designer. What can be designed cannot always be built let alone built within budget. I do not think English is Apex1's first language so diplomacy gets lost in the translation.

You have described the design process fairly well but you are not making the connection well between paper and reality.

Apex1 takes ideas on paper and turns them into reality. When he says you have never designed at boat he means that you lack the ability to connect your designs to a built boat. I am sure in his business he gets plenty of "can't do's" from even good designers.

In my opinion what you have on paper is completely not a reality within the budget that you have come up with. My advice is to take $10k and enroll in Westlawn and learn small boat design the right way. Since you will indeed design things during the course of your education, you could end up with your sub design when you are finished. I think this a better way to spend your tuition dollars.

 

new build underway submarine!!

i am letting some of the people on here know --i plan to either prove some of you wrong-or die trying...i suspect ill survive somehow...here is my youtube vids--they are the documentation process of the build. I have learned much over the last 567 days since i was here last regarding sub design...
and ill say it once more- for those who like rubber stamps and conventional mathematical models and less empirical-theoretical methiods which are fine on paper and mean nothing in real world trials - you N.A's who focus on boats only - and of course Richard with all due respect- guess-what!? -there have been many failures with all this status quo rules too!-

just as many as did those designed by non engineers- many a steel boat that werent suppopsed to sink have sank but holy crap-guess what!? they were n.a. or engineer designed too!

hmmm seems the idea that conventional methods are the holy grail religion of science and they never fail is heresy now and to further what im syaing ill just prove it by doing it--when you have built a working sub then lecture me... and ill listen- but better show mathematical models and data and pics of your build to "prove it worked" or you are just the same as me right?-
so- sorry to rock the boat so to speak but those of you who need this secruity blanket of codes and math...well your in for a rude awakening in the coming months(if 2012 doesnt stop us from completing our dreams)...sorry to burst the bubbles-but since my last vists here i have done two more successful self-designed hulls -enrolled in macnaughton school- learned to use Rhino 4- studied naval arch, and im still convinced my former methods are still more relevant now than ever--
here is the link to my documentation process...
watch them all - there is much to learn..ask me some questions and you will get an honest answer...
btw the project has been started--gave birth to it christmas day 2011..first frame done.
see vids on methods and philosophy of build...

http://www.youtube.com/user/porpoisefathom?feature=mhee

 

too late it already is...btw -what angle should the deflection be for using corrugated or half pipe over the shell for strenghtening? was trying to figure that out...?
submerged running time on a 300 amp hour bank- about 40 mins -with three banks thats about 120 mins...submerged but charge time about the same...using a large array of truck alternators for each batter- i think its one alt per two batts..so quick charge times. then dive again..etc

 

Gonzo--been meaning to thank you for some time--your posts are always well put and you offer non judgemental advice--this type of commenting only enhances my learning so-please feel free to post anytime..
now about the ww11 subs--i loved the type 21 (XXI) but the beam limitedthe design too much- i replica was going for a .238 replica of that design but the length ot beam ratio is very slender and i needed to keep it real. hence for the size of hull i need- the hull at 7 ft dia would have been 75 ft long- not practical when i could build a 53 ft in a nuke style. I plan on using both types of dive capability- i will use electric pumps for trim and high volume ballast pumps at the surface- hydraulics for the dive planes and perhaps the rudders.

 

what load transfer while submerged??? and math--well we can calcualte till the cows come home and still get nowhere--your math is thoeretical and really is just aguidline--i can get that from looking at youngs modulus assuming certain constants and using educated guesses.... i have studied the concepts--a far better way...and then tested them. shell thickness is not the problem its the ring stiffeners or the corrugated pipe stiffening-that makes a fit pressure hull. ..but the angles must be perfect for the corrugated method..otherwise known as pipe wrapping. carbon monofiliments can be used as well-too expensive....diminished dispersal is reduced when ring stiffeners are added...couple this with 9500 psi compressive strength polymer modified cement and you have a 12 000 -16 000 psi compressive yield composite material-my ring stiffeners are 3 inches wide and 3 inches thick- they are psaced 12 inches apart over 20 feet-theoretically(sionce this is what your math gives) it could withstand the marianas trench!!--but--Laugh--that would be far more than id want to try...

 

how about a gentlemans wager?--i wager i can build my sub-fully functioning--for aprox 20 000 u.s.+- 1000.00 with used and off the shelf parts--if i win--...hmm let me think about that ..if i lose- i will take a typing course to deal with typos...?

 

I generally avoid threads like this, for obvious reasons and likely why the other professionals have also not responded or bothered to continue, but frankly I think this is a great way to weed out the gene pool. I say go for it . . .

 

sure the gene pool-is not as it seems...thanks--watch the vids..you shall see.
p.s doing any builds lately? yea i too have been studying naval arch..
P.A.R.- is your 39 ft cruiser being built yet?? would love to see that one built--nice design...
p.s. i am not concerend no pros have reposponded-i represent a threat to them-but of course--this is my first post in over two years...thanks btw arent you a PRO?
peace and please view what ive got documented so far--its not much but its a start...

 

PAR has missed his metier in life, a career in the diplomatic corps.

 

I think he meant it with humor, but I actually agree with the statement. There are plenty of people, too many for the planet to support. If someone wants to risk their own life rock climbing the riskiest, highest mountain or building a one man sub, as long as they are not risking other passengers' lives, I say that's an individual's liberty. This is too large and too risky for me though.