rudder control

[Danielsan]

Hi there,

Someone thinks it can be done to use a mechanical rudder control, like the Teleflex cable systems with an inboard engine and straight output shaft?

Greetings,

Daniel Peeters

[Jeff Walkowiak]

sure it can and with little or no draft increase, and with variable power steering effect ,without power steering components, just depends on your mechanical aptitude, and ability . I can't believe any one would think it could not be done. Actually if done correctly it would out perform the conventional steering.

[Danielsan]

Thx for the prompt reply,

but I think I didn't make myself clear, I wanted to know if it can be done by means of
only mechanical components, no hydrolic, pneumatic or other power than our bare hands and arms on the steeringweel.

Greetz,

Daniel

[Jeff Walkowiak]

yes you did and I guess I did not make myself clear ,YES its possible, not even a doubt about it.I make my living building steering , as I said it can be done and even have POWER steering EFFECT, WITHOUT any power steering components. How big of a boat are you talking about? hull design? power output etc. Heck I even build steering that provides lift, and hull stability .All you want to do is provide steering to a hull with a fixed propulsion system, THATS easy, and you do not want to use hydraulics, but you want it to be as easy to steer , using a standard push pull cable type helm. So why would some one even think thats not possible, its easy to do .It boils down to getting outside the box,the old saying of do what you always do and get the same results.It just requires a little different approach.

[Danielsan]

My bad,

It was just because most of the systems that I found on the net that use only mechanical components, cable thing stuff are mostly for steering OB engines or stern drives,... I dont know what forces I can expect on the rudder. But I made a steering helm and rudder controll that provide a 12:1 reduction ratio so making a bit less than 3 turns BB - SB to get 2x 45 degrees at the rudder. I could go to 4 turns and make a somehow higher reduction?

The boat I am designing is about 7.42m LOA 6.20m LWL 0.4m draft would be planning
displacement 2500kg HP250-300 not defined yet.

Greetz,
Daniel

[Jeff Walkowiak]

so in american we are talking a 22 ft boat aprox, and you are making the wheel turn 3 times good god your arms will fall off, I make steering that on one boat the wheel only turns 1/4 turn either way and I managed to make it so easy to control that it could be driven with one hand at top speed, and turn on a dime, the steering was also fighting the force of a jet pump that constantly wants to put it back to center, I will bet you are still thinking that you need a big old fassion steering rudder mounted directly behind the prop, forget all that nonsense. Just what do you think the prop wash is doing to the rudder, trying to straighten it out ,don't you think? I use the free hydrolic force created by the boats forward motion to turn the steering for me thats how you get variable power assist the faster it goes the easier it turns, no big rudder no draft increase and no 3 turns on the wheel just a regular helm would work fine without any mods.

[Danielsan]

I might also think about an wooden steering weel like on the vessels that discovered the States some time ago it was around 17th-18th century or so? LOL I wonder how many turns the made?

I guess you might be right, after all you are in the buisness. I am only an amateur...
But thx to this site people like me get a nice hand on our job.

So I will go on with my 2.6 turns BB-SB, any other clue is well apreciated even it comes in an untactfull way.

Greetz,

Daniel

[Jeff Walkowiak]

This is America we have a strange sense of humor, to make it worse, Im a retired police chief so my sense of humor is really off the wall, plus I get a lot of people who just don't get it when it comes to making a boat steer. So just ignore the humor part. First stay away from the prop, Find the break off point on either side of the hull, where the v tapers off toward the outside, at that point on either side you mount small rudders, connected with a tie rod, where you make the rudder pivot will determine the amount of power steering you get, if the axel is mounted aprox 1/3rd back from the leading edge, 1/3 of the rudder takes the hydrolic force and converts it to push the remaining portion, the rudder must be mounted on a mount that allows it to clear the transom of the boat and a few arms attached will accomodate the steering cable hook up and tie rod hook ups, a slight tow in helps keep it dead center and an adjuster in the connecting tie rod will accomodate that. The rudders will go just at the bottom of the boat, the arms will be shielded by the transom. the rudders most likely will not need to be more tham 4 or 5 inches deep and 6 or 7 inches long. want lift add a plaining surface to the top of the rudders. look at my patent drawings for the tie rod steering system for jet boats and you get an idea, however this uses the steering nozzle to turn the rudders and they connect to that nozzle , in your application you would be connecting the regular steering cable to a steering arm on one rudder and using a tie rod to attach to the other one. now wasn't that easy? Oh and bigger is not better so don't build the rudders too big.

[Danielsan]

I love America,

Probably you are not awake anymore, but I am, after having drunk some bots of wine and wodka with some good friends. I won't get into design for tonight biut I am looking around.

Thx for the reply, I am sure things can be made simpler and easyer than most of the existing stuff.

Greets,

Daniel

[Jeff Walkowiak]

Its not even 7pm here, and I don't drink so im wide awake, but bored after 4 hurricanes within 6 weeks, normal weather seems a bit boring. And this week end I designated myself swimwear monitor so I will go out to all the islands and make sure all the female sunbathers are wearing the propper swimwear. Oh there is that sense of humor again.

[Danielsan]

If I understand well you sugest putting in 2 rudderblades, could you tell me where to put them in this design, I may need to modify the transom or so.

I follow your idea, but can't the force on the 1/3 of the rudder get to high and so pull the steeringweel more than you want it to go?

I did attach a JPG file with some details around the drivetrain.

I am not shure if I will keep the straight shaft or if I would try to use a surface drive or so.

Thx in advance,

Daniel

[Jeff Walkowiak]

If you see where the hull starts to flatten near the edges at the end of the v the rudders are to be exposed from the bottom surface but the mount and controll arms will be above the surface of the boat shielded from drag by the transom. take a look at the rudder set up in the picture section of my web site and see or look at the patent drawings for either 6561858 or 6702630, there is more detail to give you a better idea, the big trick is to have the rudders pivot behind the leading edge for power steering. the jet boat on the web site shows somewhat of a picture that should help, there the rudders are positioned about where you would want them on your application.by getting away from the prop you do yourself a big favor in avoiding all that force on your steering, plus all you really need to do is direct the rear of the boat ,the front will automatically go where you want it to go. oh the first time I met old columbus i was just a kid I believe it was 1492. L O L.

[Danielsan]

Originally Posted by Jeff Walkowiak

oh the first time I met old columbus i was just a kid I believe it was 1492. L O L.

Thx,

btw I hope my design "skills" are somehow better than my historical "knowledge"

LOL

[Danielsan]

Maybe I should flatten out the deadrise nearing the transom? It will give me a bit more sleeping space, would be more convenient for the placement of the rudders and also would make it possible to get both rudders a bit closer to each other.

What about it ?


Greetings,

Daniel Peeters

[Jeff Walkowiak]

It's your boat , but there is no reason to worry about how close the rudders are to each other, as long as you get them away from the prop wash.You will be amazed at just how effective this steering will be. And with the correct position of the pivot the steering will be effortless, thus allowing you to use a simple teleflex type steering helm. If you look at the jet boat design you will see that I also added a shear pin to release the rudder mount and allow it to flip up in the event of a collision with a floating object, that will avoid damaging the rudder if you run over a big log or floating object. this would simply require putting the rudder in place and replacing the pin . the mount is set up to accomodate the transom angle as well.The entire setup is based on the K I S S principal and it works like a dream.I would think that a wider plaining surface toward the transom would give you better hull speed as it would add lift to the hull and reduce drag.