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#106
07-21-2008, 05:25 AM
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DO you EVER read the posts by Rick Willoughby, I think not cos if you did his points would be 1 fuckin million, and there are more like him Really I have grown used to this, AND TAKEN IT FOR THE CRAP IT IS, and asked that prick Jeff to take me off, but he , knows he gets paid for quantity not quality and you know, said this before, he is NOT beyond telling who gave neg points. I have this in writing ! Then there was Bergalia, left this site cos of ****, and maybe I betray his confidence, but hell, some needs know Some of you are so low, like 60 year old men posting about how there backside smells? for Gods sake. If you get anom posts you sure as heck deserve it And this is not particularly a personal attack on you, this site is your life, For us whose profession it is, we do care abt points being given , in the spirit of boatbuilding, design  |
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#107
07-21-2008, 09:52 AM
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Never knew that we were copycats, I always thought we were the real deal.. 
__________________ KnutS "it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses" |
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#108
07-22-2008, 01:10 PM
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| Lazy you can have my points bud( only 38 lost a few to Mass and his wind up monkey).Excellent post. Mas you want to take note 600 points for mainly telling us you are designing a boat and are about to unleash the experts on the desig and construction of the cat. Mass net time you give negatives be a man and sign your name. Regards Butch |
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#109
07-22-2008, 05:04 PM
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| "Oh ****", another pissing contest and I am supposed to be the bad guy..... I do not and have not found a method to "give myself points", so I suggest you set up a thread or ask in any thread something like "Why do you give points for a post?"..... I have not given and do not condone negative points.... LJack, I read the serious levels and mostly refrain from posting as I am keen to learn more without causing too much disruption, and I do express appreciation - which is - - it seems - - limited to a periodic allocation... It reflects on you seeing as how you have been a member for considerably longer than I..... Also think of the likes of Leo Lazarus, and so many other very helpful contributors to this net... You do not HAVE to inhabit the "dungeon".... I have of occasion been given appreciation for helpfulness and reasoned advice that has been posted by those appreciating my input, but mostly for relief from life's tedium - - - most seem to be of the same "fraternity" as myself (grumpy old bastards who would rather be out cruising, but cannot because of some obligations we find ourselves committed to meeting).... I give points for posts I appreciate the advice given or to people who deserve my appreciation but I cannot find the "deserving post" or because of their continuing general contribution.... It is a means of saying "thank you" and showing appreciation for the contributions of other members/participants, The same sort of thing I do and that one should do, in real life, face to face, and if the negatives honestly expressed their displeasure including self identification, I could not find a reason to object.... I have only received 4 "negatives" - one Frosty advised me of in a PM, the other 3 I can only guess at and NO reason given - sort of like the antisocial behavior seen on the streets where kids senselessly bash random victims for no good reason? As a social community, living on this little roundish ball (or to the "flat-earthers" this flat slab). and the future is in "everyones hands" to make the place better by being nice or become extinct by being nasty - either attitude can be "infectious" - - - May your deity guide you in understanding and appreciation for others needs aspirations and hopes of / for a peaceful and pleasant life....
__________________ Try to be helpful... The trouble with people is to realise and remember that there are at least two sides for every story... A woman's breasts, one is not enough, - two may be just right, - but dreaming of 3 is a pleasant fantasy... |
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#110
07-28-2008, 06:50 AM
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| I just wrote a paper on this you mentioned turtles but I think most people are as of yet unaware how tragic the problem really is among turtles as well as other oceanic species for instance twenty five or thirty years ago there were somewhere between 120 and 150 million green sea turtles swimming in the gulf of Mexico today the estimated population is less than 30 thousand it was thought they died as incidental catch and accidental boat strikes turns out this is not the case they mostly choked to death on plastic bags we accidentally killed upwards of 150 million adults and an estimated 400 million Juvenal's with plastic bags just for fun Ill include my latest paper on plastics its not done as I havnt gotten the references boiled down to the actual papers cited nor has it seen the editor but you may find it interesting B Glass Vs Plastic Daniel J Robertson Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, M.I.T., C.U. Boulder Co. Abstract In regards to plastics use in manufacturing when a glass alternative is available. Compare the manufacturing processes, disposal practices, recycling potential and toxic effects of both glass and plastic and there effects on our environment. Hypothesis, that the preponderance of plastic fragments and molecular plastic, plastic leachates, binders, bio-toxins, bio-toxin accumulators carcinogens and tarterogens hormone disruptors, endocrine disruptors, plastic by products and consequential post and preproduction waste in the environment and there harmful consequence are sufficient to offset any advantages over glass. All conclusions are substantiated in the body and noted. conclusions glass Both glass and glass waste are non toxic and stable in the environment giving off no harmful byproducts. Manufacturing of glass produces pollutants at the source of manufacturing and during materials acquisition, these pollutants can be controlled economically: various network modifiers used in the production of glass appear to play no significant pollution role. Chemically tempered glass is also inert. Lead used in the manufacture of decorative glass falls under the guidelines of EPCRA Section 313 and is exempt being stable with in the glass matrix. There has been a steady decline in pollutants produced pr ton of glass, mainly co2 , noX, soX . Glass is 100% recyclable conclusions plastic Plastic, plastic components, the production of plastic and plastic waste are mildly to extremely toxic all are environmentally detrimental , with results ranging from the release of strong carcinogens and tarterogens to the existence of bio-toxin accumulators and endocrine disruptors. five of the six most toxic and abundant chemical pollutants found in the environment are commonly associated with the production of plastics. Plastic photo-degrades releasing persistent toxins like Bisphenol A and Phthalates over extended periods of time. Plastic is non biodegradable and both the long chain and short chain plastic molecule appears to be permanent in the environment. Pollutants consisting of nurdles, leachates, fragmentary or hole plastic waste cannot be economically controlled. There has been an exponential rise in molecular plastic found throughout the worlds oceans. Animal deaths based on plastic ingestion number in the hundreds of millions with some extinction events and trophic cascades noted. Pollution pr ton of plastic produced appears to be increasing. Most plastic is non recyclable. citation Paul Goettlich 14dec01 the problem with plastic Charles Moore and Miwa Tamanaha, Pelagic Plastic Task Force Organizers 11apr01 Plastic in the Sea - Paul Goettlich / Living Nutrition 5oct2005 Editor This article is presently under development and will be edited upon its completion ( so dont come at me with spelling issues ) Copyright This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited. Funding This research project has been Anonymously funded, the benefactor having no role in study design, data collections and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript competing interests the author confirms that no competing interests exist Body Environmental concerns over glass Glass is made up of a few naturally abundant minerals, mostly silicate, and breaks down into natural, harmless components(3,6). Waste glass is environmentally neutral(3). The vast majority of pollution caused by the manufacturing of glass is source point and can be managed economically. Waste glass prepared for reuse, called Cullet is also inert and its increasing use as an aggregate means that it can be economically reused without the need for remanufacture (36). When remanufacturing is advantageous cullet reduces the level of emissions from the process by up to 40% (3,37) and the level of energy by as much as 30% (9,32,35). glass has an Embodied Energy of between 25.0 MJ/kg and 12.7 MJ/kg (1,4,30). and a density of 2470 kg/m3 (1). Glass is 100% recyclable (32). The U.S. glass recycling rate in 2003 was 19% (9) in 2001, for Australia 83%, Sweden: 84%, Germany: 87%, Belgium and Norway: 88%, Finland: 91% and Switzerland: 92% (9). Recycling one ton of glass saves nine to ten gallons of oil (9,32) Environmental concerns over plastics Plastic is made up of numerous petroleum based compounds, to produce 1 kg of Acrylic (PMMA, Polymethyl methacrylate) (23) 2 kg of petroleum is needed and up to 5 kg of toxic waist is generated (2,3). Plastic never breaks down but instead photo-degrades into some of the most hazardous petrochemical substances known to man (3,6,7,38). PMMA has an embodied energy of about 131.0MJ/kg with a density of 1180 kg/m3 (1,3,30). Although it is difficult to determine the exact production level of plastics per yr. 2007 estimates range from 100,000,000 to 205,000,000 tons (28,45) with an anual increase of 9.5% (45) 100,000,000,000 plastic bags are used each year in the u.s. alone (10) the U.S recovery (recycling) rate for all plastics in 2005 was 1% (3,5,8,10) In 2007 World wide, less than 3% is recovered (3,5,8). In an EPA ranking of the twenty chemicals whose production generates the most total hazardous waste, five of the top six are chemicals commonly used by the plastic industry. (10) recycling one ton of plastic saves 1000 gallons of oil (10,32) Plastic as it photo-degrades releases binders like Phthalates, Bisphenol A, Nonyphenols and PBDEs along with countless other known carcinogens and teratogens (3,16,21,25,32). Once the binders are released, plastic remains as a large molecule(3,17). Dioxins are created both during production and incineration (2,3,16,17,31,32,46) dioxins are the strongest carcinogen known to man (3,5,6.7,31,38), The number of harmful chemicals associated with the production of plastic are to numerous to mention in this comparison, however; just one a primary component of acrylics ( mainly polycarbonates ) is bisphenol A (BPA), a hormone disrupter, that releases into food and liquid at room temperature(3,16,17,21,), it is considered a teratogen along with thalidomide and is known to cause embryonic malformations (3.8.16). Phthalates have been shown to cause genital malformations In 1999 Plastic waste had outweighed plankton in our oceans 6 to 1, by 2002 the number had risen to 10/1 (3,10,11,16,17). The north pacific gyre alone, has a density of 14.8 million visible pieces of floating plastic per square mile, over an area twice the size of texas (3,11). Thats 1.9 pieces of plastic such as, bottles, bottle caps, lighters, beach palls, plastic packaging or plastic aquariums for every square foot of ocean surface spanning an area of 537,202 square miles (3,11). This is only one of six mid ocean gyre systems polluted to this extent (39). These areas of floating plastic range in size from twice the size of Texas to the size of Africa (3,11). Plastic appears to have a half life longer than most radioactive compounds (3) with its use being required by the epa as containment packaging for low grade nuclear waist disposal (33,43). Polyethylene has been approved for the long term disposal of liquid radioactive waist (3,40,41,42) ( of course they also approved glass, tar and concrete ). The long chain plastic molecule is so durable that its half life is still being researched. Plastic virtually never breaks down in the environment beyond the molecular level (3,7,11). We are stuck with every piece of plastic ever created (11). Unless collected and incinerated there is no getting rid of it. Remanufacture is not effective in halting plastics from leaching contaminates into there surroundings. There is little debate over the adverse effects of plastics to the marine environment (ref-all not one dissenting opinion as to plastics harmful effect on the marine ecosystem ), Various forms of marine life, eat so much plastic, mistaking plastic fragments for plankton that it has decimated our ocean communities (10,11,15,16,17,44). Filter feeders unable to distinguish between plastic molecules and plankton, ingest and include millions of tons of plastics into the food chain (3,7,10,11,16,17,32,44), leading to the contamination and eventual starvation of countless organisms (3,10,11,16,17,32,44). additional comments the cost of collecting, destroying or remanufacturing Plastic (as most plastic is uneconomical to remanufacture) “must” be endured no mater how high because of plastics highly toxic and enduring nature; were as the recycling of glass can be safely limited to its economic viability with out adverse environmental effects, as long as source point gaseous emissions are controlled. The embodied energy of acrylic is over ten times that of glass, making it both an economically and environmentally unsound alternative (3,5,14,32). The environmental impact of glass is minimal (3,6,32,36,). references 1 ) Materials, geometry, and net energy ratio of tubular ... 2 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley/Be...Task-Force.htm 3 ) www.mindfully.org/Plastic/ 4 ) measure of sustainability embodied energy 5 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Bes...le-Plastic.htm 6 ) http://www.lotuslive.org/products/fi...ontainer01.pdf 7 ) http://www.fakeplasticfish.com/synth...ranscript.html 8 ) www.ecologycenter.org 9 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Glass 10 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Plastic 11 ) www.acfnewsource.org/environment/ 12 ) www.fragmentsfromfloyd.com/ 2007/06/ 13 ) NRC: Radioactive Waste 14 ) BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Warning on plastic's toxic threat 15 ) Keeping our ocean clean : Bradley Beach Today 16 ) Untitled Document 17 ) http://www.mountainfilm.org/download...lastic_Sea.pdf 18 ) http://www.visiongroup.co.uk/go.jsp?...oup_uk.compare comparison of glass and plastic 19 )http://www.firsttankguide.net/tanktype.php comparison of glass and acrylic 20 )www.stii.dost.gov.ph/pjsweb/data/decomposer.htm - 7k 21 ) http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics...abase/bad.html 22 ) http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/f_acrlac.txt 23 ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate 24 ) http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5998554.html 25 ) http://www.npi.gov.au/database/subst...rofiles/6.html 26 ) http://goalgreen.com/2007/06/25/plas...eps-on-giving/ 27 ) http://www.chemsoc.org/exemplarchem/...head/facts.htm 28 ) http://www.wasteonline.org.uk/resour...s/Plastics.htm 29 ) www.level.org.nz 30 ) www.grisb.org/publications/pub33.htm - 24k - 31 ) http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/publications/ 32 ) GLASS vs. PLASTIC 33 ) RADIOACTIVE WASTE MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY ... 34)http://www.devicelink.com/mpb/archive/96/01/001.html http://www.environmentwriter.org/res...crylicacid.htm 35 ) Fact Sheets - Glass 36 ) ftp://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-...df/yrr_feb.pdf 37 ) Cullet Preheating: The Realistic Solution for All Glass Furnaces ... 38 ) Professional Environmental Solutions - Atlanta, Georgia 39 ) Patagonia Under Siege: The Plastic Killing Fields - Pacific Ocean ... 40 ) Composition and process for the encapsulation and stabilization of ... 41 ) APPENDIX D - Key Federal Laws and Regulations 42 ) Mixed-Waste Shipping & Transportation | Radiation Protection | US EPA 43 ) Low Level Radioactive Waste Information Page 44 ) DEP: Atlantic Green Sea Turtle Fact Sheet 45 ) Ulrich Reifenhäuser: Plastics and rubber have changed the world ... 46 ) Plastic Debris Washed Ashore 47 ) Bizarre Properties of Glass Revealed | LiveScience 48 ) Canada Likely to Label Plastic Ingredient ‘Toxic’ - New York Times additional resources http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/ http://www.americanplasticscouncil.o...ID=1110&VID=86 http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley-Pl...Task-Force.htm http://www.designboom.com/eng/educat...recycling.html http://americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/glass.htm http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/seahome/.../src/glass.htm http://www.cityofmadison.com/streets/plastic.html White, R; Jobling, S; Hoare, SA; Sumpter, JP; Parker, MG. Environmentally persistent alkylphenolic compounds are estrogenic. Endocrinology, 135, 175-182 (1994). Tyler, CR; Jobling, S; Sumpter, JP. Endocrine disruption in wildlife: a critical review of the evidence. Critical Reviews in Toxicology, 28, 319-361 (1998). Soto, A.M., Justica, H. Wray, J.W., Sonnenschein, C. p-Nonyl-phenol: an estrogenic xenobiotic released from "modified" polystyrene. Environ. Health Perspect. 92, 167-173 (1991). Sonnenschein, C; Soto, AM. An updated review of environmental estrogen and androgen mimics and antagonists. J. Steroid Biochem. & Molec. Biol. 65, 143-150 (1998). Mato, Y., Isoibe, T., Takada, H., Kanehiro, H., Ohtake, C, Kaminuma, T. Plastic resin pellets as a transport medium for toxic chemicals in the marine environment. Environ. Sci. Technol. 35, 318-324 (2001). Kelce, WR; Stone, CR; Laws, SC; Gray, LE; Kemppainen, JA; Wilson, EM. Persistent DDT metabolite p,p'-DDE is a potent androgen receptor antagonist. Nature 375, 581-585 (1995). Sumpter, JP; Jobling, S. Vitellogenesis as a biomarker for estrogenic contamination of the aquatic environment. Environmental Health Perspectives 103, Suppl 7, 173-184 (1995). Kuiper GGJM, Carlsson B, Grandien K, Enmark E, Haggblad J, Nilsson S, Gustafsson J-A. Comparison of the ligand binding specificity and transcript tissue distribution of estrogen receptors ? and ?. Endocrinology 138, 863-870 (1997). Kuiper, GGJM., Lemmen, J.G., Carlsson, B., Corton, J.C., Safe, S.H., van der Saag, P.T.,van der Burg, B., Gustafsson, J-A. Interaction of estrogenic chemicals and phytoestrogens with estrogen receptor ?. Endocrinology 139, 4252-4263 (1998). Baker ME, Sklar DH, Terry LS, Hedges MR. Diethyl Pyrocarbonate, a histidine selective reagent, inhibits estrogen binding to receptor protein in rat uterus cytosol. Biochem. Int. 11, 233-238 (1985). Baker ME, Terry LS. Diethylpyrocarbonate, a histidine selective reagent, inhibits progestin binding to chick oviduct cytosol. Steroids 42, 593-60 (1983). Nagel, SC; vom Saal, FS; Welshons, WV. Developmental effects of estrogenic chemicals are predicted by an in vitro assay incorporating modification of cell uptake by serum. J. Steroid Biochem. & Molec. Biol. 69, 343-357 (1999). Baker, M.E. Adrenal and sex steroid receptor evolution: environmental implications. J. Molec. Endocrinol. 26, 119-225 (2001). Bakun, A. and Weeks, S. (2004). Greenhouse gas buildup, sardines, submarine eruptions and the possibility of abrupt degradation of intense marine upwelling ecosystems Ecology Letters 7: 1015-1023. » Weeks S. J., Currie B. and A. Bakun (2002). Satellite identification of massive hydrogen sulphide emissions in the southeastern Atlantic Ocean. Nature 415: 493-494. Myers, R. A, J.K. Baum, T.D. Shepherd, S. P. Powers, C. H. Peterson (2007) Cascading effects of the loss of apex predatory sharks from a coastal ocean, Science 315(5820): 1846-1850. |
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#113
07-28-2008, 11:36 AM
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| In 1999 Plastic waste had outweighed plankton in our oceans 6 to 1, by 2002 the number had risen to 10/ Sounds like its time for some genetic engineering , 15lb shrimp that live on plastic sound about right. FF |
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#114
07-28-2008, 03:31 PM
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| actually what seems to happen is that even though various marine organisms are swimming in a sea of food they starve to death as they are not designed to differentiate between a plastic fragment or molecule and plankton so they eat both as of 2002 that would be 10 plastic to 1 plankton also plastic nurdles which resemble copapod's in both color, size and shape are bio-toxin accumulators that creates a situation were toxins are concentrated in the food chain under epa standards the average polar bears flesh is so heavily saturated with persistent toxins that it falls well into the boundaries of hazardous waist along with Killer Whales and the fda has issued a recommendation that inuit woman not breast feed there babies due to the fact they are so heavily contaminated as well although the epa has been strangely silent over studies concerning human contamination basically there doesnt seem to be a way to clean it up Im afraid the numbers in the slide show were in error significantly on the low side by some estimates we have dumped 60.000.000.000 tons of plastic into the oceans already on some beaches ocean debris is 85% plastic on a molecular level there is literally a snow storm of plastic throughout the worlds oceans even plastic water bottles are about to have an expiration date as the polycarbonate leaches such high concentrations of toxins into the water with in about six months as to make it hazardous to drink and Canada is in the process of banning polycarbonate s from food contact although pvc is the worst one sorry I went on and on but this subject is near and dear to me as I plan to retire to a yacht Ive been planning for years B and bonna petit |
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#116
07-28-2008, 05:31 PM
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| thanks I always wanted to retire on the water I grew up there its kinda my home to see what has happened there is beyond tragic Im hoping there will be a plastics settlement similar to the mine reclamation act and the cigarette settlement the plastics industry knew all about this stuff way back in the fifties they should be made to clean up there mess brings me to tears |
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#117
07-28-2008, 05:49 PM
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| The results of a morning's beach clean at Midway Atoll, 1200 miles NW of Hawaii. The atoll supports the world's largest population of Laysan Albatross, nearly 71% or thereabouts, and cigarette lighters claim the lives of many. This, on a small island far removed from civilization, demonstrates only too well the long-term effect mankind can have on the oceans and their gyre currents.  Here's a good general news-story that will help explain to those who have difficulty comprehending - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6218698.stm . I think this may be the link Boston is missing in his list. Boston, I'd give you lots of points, but don't know how to, and really don't care. I suspect you don't either........ great post and thanks for the information and links. |
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#119
07-28-2008, 06:17 PM
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| No wonder the septics have problems lost their balls....  ? or in the case of "Midway" - asians?
__________________ Try to be helpful... The trouble with people is to realise and remember that there are at least two sides for every story... A woman's breasts, one is not enough, - two may be just right, - but dreaming of 3 is a pleasant fantasy... |
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