placement and spacing of frames

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by alanrockwood, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    Ad Hoc

    Well I'm not selling anything, and I really do not have any idea what you do, or what you feel is needed for your work.

    Obviously, we live in two different worlds.

    Mark
     
  2. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    Alik,

    Sorry for my confusion,

    My intent was to confine the discussion to frames and not discuss specifically longitudinal scantling, number or spacing. Not to say that the longitudinal scantling requirements would not change somewhat after tightening frame spacing, but to look at frame spacing as more prominent in routing of systems.

    ----------

    CaptBill,

    Thanks, I will take a look at Grasshopper.

    Mark
     
  3. CaptBill
    Joined: Jan 2010
    Posts: 184
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 64
    Location: Savannah,Ga

    CaptBill CaptBill

    I got the tip from this guy right here on this forum, I believe. So a big thanks to Gerard for some real cool demos.

     
  4. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    CaptBill,

    Please forgive the long explanation, but since you have explored many different packages on your own, perhaps you could comment on what you have found.

    I looked at Grasshopper. It encompasses a rules based approach, with its own block diagram syntax, to create new designs from a standardized template or reference.

    This approach is maturing in the 3D CAD arena. Rhino is embracing it as an add in.

    ----------

    Solidworks started early with this concept using what was called a design table. The table was just a small Excel spreadsheet which allowed the design to create a new part based on an old with predefined design intent (features).

    Solidworks now has taken this functionality a step further in using Driveworks Express. This is a database oriented system which provides more automation capabilities for the 3D solid model and auto generation of all the 2D drawings.

    So why is this common part morphing getting so much attention?

    Mainly it allows very quick generation of solid models and drawings based on a common part type using a designer (CAD guy) to produce the changes, based on engineering from the NA, and drawing expertise from the lead fabrication engineer/designer.

    ----------

    Example;

    Lets say you have a rudder design, and having knowledge of the engineering, you are able to determine the primary features, such that you could describe a new design by overwriting the key parameter values of the original.

    So all of the important features and relationships between features are described.

    To make a new solid model just enter the new feature values and the software will complete the model. Now, because part generation is automated, we will extend this automation to the drawings.

    To better organize part and drawing objects we will use a database.

    This is Driveworks express.

    There are many potential advantages to exploring the power of Driveworks express for marine.

    Conceptually it moves beyond the use of a spreadsheet to modify features of a common boat structure into a solid model environment.

    It allows a less experienced designer, perhaps someone who is not versed in the minute details of the engineering, to produce a 3D model based on constraints and engineering conceived and organized by the NA and structural engineers.

    Also as part of this automation process, the 2D drawings are also generated using the expertise of the drawing engineer to meet corporate standards (SME, ANSI, GD&T, etc.). After the new part and drawings are created, a new part number is applied and all files moved into PDM database.

    This is helpful to everyone involved because, once the part is created, Lets say the rudder in this case, the NA can access the 3D model and use this newly created part with confidence that it was created properly and is ready for immediate analysis. The NA, after all was key in creating it.

    The NA will then tag for final changes, a designer will do the work, and the final part (3D model) and drawings are created at the same time. The rudder prototype drawings will have a final review, mostly firming up for the build house in reference to process (welding) and CNC (GD&T). The solid model and GD&T drawing is used to create the part, or part element, using CNC.

    So, for example, the NA with knowledge of foil type and possessing relevant testing data, a template is created (Driveworks database) from which a design (part, small assembly, drawings) can be created with confidence it will be done correctly for modelling, function and manufacture without the NAs constant supervision.

    Mark
     
  5. CaptBill
    Joined: Jan 2010
    Posts: 184
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 64
    Location: Savannah,Ga

    CaptBill CaptBill

    Hi Mark,
    This is the type of stuff I find fascinating and I bet the big fancy software packages are/have been doing all this for years.And probably worth every dime too, I bet, considering what they can produce. I would loooove to have more access to one (first i would need a supercomputer though haha). I am hoping to find a little niche somewhere in the action by developing small add-on apps to the big CAD setups. Grasshopper is unique for software because it gives a 'component based' front end which is what I am quite familiar with, directly to the 3d screen. And there is no code compiling. Live programming by plugging this output wire from this 'box' to the input slot of this 'box' and all updates live. A cross between a spreadsheet and VisualBasic (object oriented programming). From your perspective coming from a CAD background you may not be as impressed. It is easier to see from an object oriented programmers viewpoint. Links the two directly and live too. This is great for prototyping ideas in 3d programming. Then I try to implement it in a full fledged compiler language called Lazarus/Delphi/C+. Hopefully the end result is a plug-in targeted to serve a very specific purpose that, hopefully enough people find to solve that specific task. So the best description might be a component-based spreadsheet for 3d data. Great prototyping tool for sure.
     
  6. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    CaptBill,

    As an EE I have considerable amount of PC and embedded programming experience, from custom OSs to Windows to QNX.

    Rhino for Marine has a role which does not lend itself well to NURBS parametric model manipulation. Rhino dabbles in this area by way of plug ins.

    Rhino is an accepted front end for doing Marine "industrial design" artistic conceptual development. Not porting to mechanical design. It is possible to do, but is not productive or proven as Solidworks and Autodesk (ShipConstructor) products.

    Solidworks, IMHO is the most productive parametric modeler. Because of this it is the best at extending parametric features automation (Driveworks Express). It would be difficult to offer a generic spreadsheet solution for Marine parametric needs, because all of the major Marine firms have slightly different development tools and approach. Driveworks Express has the flexibility so as to be customized by the firm to best meet its particular need.

    The need for CAD programming support and IT for Marine is on PDM Database Management, ePDM, PLC (Life cycle of objects), and IT. These areas require the most scripting support and data base programming knowledge.

    Here is an example:

    https://www3.apply2jobs.com/fmg/ProfExt/index.cfm?fuseaction=mExternal.showJob&RID=452&CurrentPage=1

    Mark
     
  7. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
    Posts: 5,371
    Likes: 258, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 3380
    Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)

    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    I have tried it, and imho NX by Siemens is a whole level above it, though Solidworks is easier to learn.
    Rhino is further more behind NX but, considering the price, is an excellent compromise for a small design office.
     
  8. CaptBill
    Joined: Jan 2010
    Posts: 184
    Likes: 10, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 64
    Location: Savannah,Ga

    CaptBill CaptBill

    That is fascinating stuff. Whole lot of work goes into those specialized CAD apps. They provide much more than Rhino/etc can alone because it is the customization and anticipation of certain needs that the 'high end customized' packages provide. THAT is what you pay for the big bucks for. That is a suitable production environment for actual production environment use. Other wise you need to become a 3d programmer pretty much. (their are custom apps much like ShipConstructor but customized for making shoes, ShoeConstructor it might even be called)

    The client/server database stuff is more familiar that the 3d for me yet.
     

  9. Mark Cat
    Joined: Jun 2011
    Posts: 115
    Likes: 4, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 66
    Location: Michigan

    Mark Cat Senior Member

    daiquiri,

    Hello, again.

    Can you be specific in how NX is more productive than Solidworks? It would help me if you could use a Marine example.

    Which do you use now?

    I am not sure if I would call the latest version of NX parametric. It is perhaps in a new area all its own.

    To me the key element in a parametric modeler is strict adherence to a history based tree. This can be seen either as limiting, or imposing discipline on the designer or team of designers. In general it organizes a framework for solid modelling features. This then can be used as a base to automate common part type creation.

    Solidworks also supports free form surface tools like NX, but in a history tree fashion.

    If you would like to discuss specific comparisons let me know, but please confine to a common area like one of the following:

    Solid Modelling
    Surface Modelling (Constant curvature)
    Hybrid Modelling
    Molds
    Sheet Metal
    Weldments
    Routing

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.