piss-poor boat plans!......

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Caldera Boats, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. daiquiri
    Joined: May 2004
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    Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)

    daiquiri Engineering and Design

    Don't know what plans did you buy and where, but I can't help wondering what did you expect to see for $125?

    Back where I come from they use to say - so much money, so much music.
     
  2. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi Gonzo, I fully agree with you. I must be the most inexperienced amateur boat builder on this net ( I am getting it right) and here is my input. The inexpensive plans of USA $ 110 I bought gives me some superb 3 dimension drawings of how it should look like. ( I understood the designer is dead) Some people made the comment that they are old fashioned and outdated. But I trust those plans as I have seen many boats having made from those plans. However in my case I like to see a pricelist up front from all designers. Something similar like:
    Example
    Stability calculations for the Hartley 28 (or name of your boat) : $ 50.00
    Stability calculations for the Fisherman 18 : $ 40.00
    Reply to an e-mail $ 25.00
    Any calculation each $ 40.00
    Step by Step workflow sheet $ 100.00
    Etc. Etc.

    One could then up front get the confidence that if I selected a designer, that I actual will make and finish the boat and not being left in the cold in midair or being milked out financially.
    Maybe now you understand why I selected a plan recommended by another boat builder.

    I thoroughly enjoy this thread and even consider If I cannot get my calculations right to approach one of you. Price is not always no1, provided one has the confidence in the designer.
    Bert
     
  3. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
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    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    Good stock plans would normally cost few percent for construction cost of boat. We sell stock plans (not to amateur boabuilders without experience) with some conditions, read below:

    IMPORTANT CONDITIONS OF PURCHASE – PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

    In purchasing this design set the Customer agrees to accept the terms and conditions of purchase as set out below, and to bind any builder contracted to build the boat to the same set of conditions.

    Definitions:
    Designer – the party developing and selling design set;
    Customer – the party purchasing the design set;
    Builder – the party in charge of building the boat; this may be the Customer.
    Design set – scope of design materials provided by designer for construction and certification of boat


    1. TECHNICAL ISSUES

    1.1 Recommended power and propulsion

    The Customer and Builder agree to follow designer’s recommendations on engines power. The Customer and Builder are advised that horsepower which exceeds recommended limits may cause safety problems during operation of the boat, or performance of the boat different from the Designer’s estimates.

    1.2 Weights and their distribution

    The Customer and Builder agree to adhere to the weight schedule of boat, as presented in the ‘Table of Weights’ provided by the Designer. The Customer and Builder should understand that significant changes in weights and their distribution can cause reduction of speed, unexpected loads on structure, reduced stability, reduced freeboard and thus a reduction of general safety and or performance of the boat. The Customer and Builder are strongly advised to consult the Designer if anticipated weight change may exceed 10% of displacement, or if weight changes may cause the longitudinal or vertical positions of CG to change by more than 2% of the length or depth of hull respectively.

    The Customer and Builder are informed that the most common reasons of overweight are: poor control of resin content during lamination, excessive use of filler on the structure; use of heavy interior materials and equipment; installation of extra equipment and tanks.

    1.3 Laminate specifications

    The Designer provides a lamination schedule together with structural drawings. The Builder is solely responsible for following this schedule in terms of quality of laminate, working conditions, resin/fiber content and weights of moldings. Acceptable differences in weights of moldings are from –5% to +10%. An overweight margin is already included in the weights estimate.

    If materials specified in lamination schedule are unavailable, the Builder is strongly recommended to consult the Designer for proper alternatives.

    1.4 Aesthetical changes

    Our experience shows that in most cases significant aesthetical changes introduced by a Customer/Builder will detrimentally change the appearance of the boat. The Customer and Builder are advised to consult the designer on such changes. The Designer has the right to withdraw his name as designer of the boat and to refuse further advice and support if such changes are made without the Designer’s approval.

    2. INTERACTION BETWEEN DESIGNER AND BUILDER

    2.1 Builder

    The Customer agrees to use a qualified boat Builder (including Builder’s subcontractors) for construction of the boat.

    It is should be understood by the Customer that the Designer does not have access to the Builder’s yard unless he is contracted for supervision. In any case the Designer is not in a position to control every stage of the construction. The Designer and Customer have to rely on the Builder’s management skills and experience. The Designer agrees to issue a notice in writing if he becomes aware of any significant variations between boat construction and design documentation.

    2.2 Recommended builders

    The Designer has successful record of previous work with different Builders and can provide his recommendations to Customer on request, but accepts no liability for the performance of any Builder so recommended.

    2.3 Support during construction

    The purchase of a design set gives the Customer the right to limited support during the construction for one year after the purchase of the design set. Normally we would not answer the questions such as ‘how to apply gelcoat?’, ‘what material we should use to seal the fuel tank cover?’ or ‘how to drain water from outboard engine recess?’. The Designer reserves the right to limit correspondence to a reasonable amount and will not provide technical training or advice. We assume that a qualified Builder has enough experience to make proper decisions on construction techniques, as well as on scuppers, hose clamps, application of materials, etc.

    The Customer and builder are required to study the whole design set before asking questions. In most cases the answers to Your questions are on next pages.

    The Customer and Builder are advised that the Designer is not immediately available to answer queries by phone or email.

    It is strongly recommended that the Owner/Builder follow all verbal communications with written copies by e-mail, fax or letter as this is the best method of ensuring that the designer has a complete record pertaining to the boat. This may be critical to future advice.

    On site supervision of construction by the Designer is available at extra charge and is a subject to an additional agreement.

    2.4 Use of ‘sistership’ photos

    We always find it impolite when a Builder is using photos of boats not built by him for his marketing. In particular, this refers to Builders whose website contains photos of sisterships built from same design but by other builders (in most cases such photos originate from Designer’s website). It happens with many stock designs but it is hardly acceptable practice without publishing additional comments. The Designer requires that if such photos are used by a Customer/Builder, it should clearly marked as ‘sistership’ preferably with reference to builder of the sistership boat. The reason for such policy is to avoid misunderstanding of Builder’s launching record, skills and capacity by potential buyers.


    3 STANDARDS

    3.1 Standards applied

    During the development of the design, the Designer has followed the standards in force as at the date of design completion. The Customer and Builder acknowledge that the Designer does not guarantee certification of the boat, and that during the certification process there may be a need for minor corrections of design documents or modifications of the boat construction. This is due to different interpretations of standards by classification bodies. The Designer accepts no liability should such modifications be necessary.

    The Builder is strongly recommended to refer to ISO Small Craft standards during the construction of boat, and the installation of systems and equipment. The Customer is notified that boat is not designed for commercial transportation of passengers or for any other commercial use.

    3.2 Recommended information for builder’s plate

    The Boat design is developed according to the ISO ‘Small Craft’ group of standards. Recommended category – C ‘sheltered’ or B ‘offshore’. Recommended information for builder’s plate: maximum passenger capacity – 12; maximum total load – 2000kg, maximum power – 2x250HP.

    3.3 Category assessment

    Any expenses or works related to procedures of category assessment by certification bodies are excluded from the design fee. The Designer can assist on certification issues for an extra charge that is subject to an additional agreement.


    4 RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF DESIGNER

    4.1 Responsibility of Designer

    The DESIGNER has developed the design following the best design practices and engineering techniques available at the time.

    In terms of boat safety and performance, the Designer guarantees only the correctness of his calculations including safety assessment, performance predictions, weight calculations, structural calculations, etc. within reasonable engineering accuracy.

    In any case the Designer does not accept any responsibility for the safety of the boat’s navigation, transportation or operation of the boat.

    The Designer does not guarantee that the boat will meet the speed predictions as speed is affected by numerous construction and equipment installation factors over which the designer has no direct control.

    The Customer is advised that a decision to build a boat from this design set is at his risk solely and acknowledges that he is prepared to bear any reasonable costs of possible adjustments and modifications which may arise from the Designer’s omissions.

    The Designer does not take any responsibility for any defects or differences in design particulars of the boat, caused by mismatch of the boat, constructed to design documentation, including but not limited to mismatch of hull dimensions and shape, mismatch of thickness and properties of materials (including content of components in composite structures), or differences of weight and its distribution.

    The aspects of construction management, application of materials, installation of equipment using common methods and manufacturers recommendations, details, consumables etc. are not the Designer’s responsibility.

    Any modification of the design is the sole prerogative of the Designer. Any modifications of the design carried out by unauthorized parties are not the Designer’s responsibility.

    4.2 Errors and omissions

    Whilst every effort has been made to make the design set clear and correct, we can not guarantee that the drawings are free from small errors or omissions. If such issues do arise we will be pleased to receive feedback from Builder on these issues, and introduce proper adjustments.

    4.3 Photographic report of construction

    Owner and Builder agree to provide photographic reports for the Designer during the construction, on his request. Our experience shows that such photos are good way to find construction mistakes if any at an early stages and minimize the amount of rework required.

    4.4 Ownership of design

    All design documentation is sole intellectual property of the Designer. The design set cannot be resold, transferred or exposed to third parties (excerpt certification bodies) in printed or electronic form without the written permission of the Designer.

    The Design documentation may not be copied other than for purposes of workshop use or certification.

    By purchasing the design set the Customer/Builder is authorized to build only one vessel from the design. Construction of further boats is subject of additional agreement between the Designer and the Owner/Builder.

    4.5 Publicity and marketing

    The Owner and the Builder agree that the name of the Designer shall appear in all articles, information, advertisements, and brochures prepared by the Owner/Builder about the boat , unless otherwise requested by the Designer. Drawings appearing in such documents are to originate from the Designer or are to be approved by the Designer in writing. The Designer maintains the right to use any test data, drawings, specifications, photographs etc. of the vessel for publicity, including advertising brochures, magazine articles, etc. The Owner's/Builder’s name, however, may not be used by the Designer in such publicity without the Owner/Builder’s express consent.

    The Designer has the right to remove his name as the boat designer from the boat if the boat is not built following design documentation, is not built to an appropriate standard, or is significantly modified without Designer’s consent. In this eventuality, the Owner/ Builder have no further right to refer in any way to the Designer as the Designer of the boat.
     
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  4. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
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    Alik Senior Member

    In previous post, some known problems of working with small/amateur builders are reflected.
     
  5. michael pierzga
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: spain

    michael pierzga Senior Member

    2 or three hundred dollar plans are perfect for experienced small craft builders who need minimum guidance. I have a set of beautifully detailed " 400 dollar" plans on my desk now for a simple outboard powered 25 footer. I Don't see any questions that must be asked of her designer . Since the plans are a few years old perhaps a quick email to the design office for material, scantling suggestions might be in order...but she would be perfectly " modern " as designed.

    Its important to remember that stock...portfolio... " designs" are so cheap to buy that the only way a designer could possibly "feed the family" and retire is by charging extra for each bit of construction advice, guidance needed. This advice is well worth purchasing if you are a serious customer.
    I regularly see designers visit yachts during the construction phase, the floatation phase and sea trail phase......... completely free of cost. Be sure to contract one of these full service, well respected, design offices.
     
  6. wardd
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Location: usa

    wardd Senior Member

    design your own boat plans only $125

    included is 3 sheets of blank paper and for an additional charge of $200 a pencil
     
  7. raw
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Location: Oz

    raw Senior Member

    I have a saying that if a client cannot afford the plans then they probably cannot afford the boat. Even expensive ones are % points of the entire project.


    I had an amateur come to me a few years ago after buying a set of plans from one of the most well known amateur plan providers that were really quite unworkable and left much to the imagination.


    I gave him a price to do a set of plans based on his brief which was many many times that of the other set he already had. After the initial heart attack, I agreed to break down the price into segements, with a number of optional non critical parts that he could his own way on.


    At the end of the project, client had paid in full for everything, plus had sent an additional cheque with a christmas card because he felt he had short changed me.


    Like most things in life, you get what you pay for...
     
  8. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Yes, you do IF you are veeeeery CAREFULL :)

    There are plenty out there who will charge you a LOT more than it should cost !
     
  9. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    Reading all the threads, everybody is probably right in his own right. But it still all boils down to the trust and confidence between the designer and boatbuilder. I am pleased to see that some of you don't deal with amateurs like me up front. Normally one cannot earn a living from the amateur boatbuilder. Last week I bought a lathe/milling machine and 316 stainless steel, because the engineering company tried to convince me that 304 is good enough. So you will have amateur boatbuilders who will change something in the design, the designer does not like and you have a break down in relationship. It depends in which market one is. In the mass market, producing designs for the masses, worked out in detail and lists. Or in the single personal design, which cost lots of time and you need a wealthy client to work it out together. In the experimental market, like I like to be in, one need up front pricelists the american way. Mass produced plans with "pay as you go" support pricelist and a CD or DVD. Sorry, but I will never be able to deal with a designer who has pages and pages legal clauses, even if they are totally correct in securing their own and clients position. Just a personal preferance, no real critisism. I have dealt in my life with too many legal disputes and only the legal world are the winners.
    Bert
     
  10. rwatson
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    Location: Tasmania,Australia

    rwatson Senior Member

    Theres a lot in what you say Bert. If there's not a real meeting of minds between designer and client, its a potential upset.

    Who was it that said "Never sign a contract with anyone where a handshake wouldn't have been good enough in the first place"
     
  11. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    Location: Bellingham WA

    cthippo Senior Member

    Speaking of boat plans, I was toying around with the idea of putting together a database of as many commercially available plans as I can find. The plans would be sorted by the usual particulars (length, beam, type, etc etc) and would have links to the plan sites. Does anyone think this would be useful?
     
  12. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    It certainly would be a great tool for many users. The work is astronomical. Who is going to pay you for keeping it up to date? The idee is great, but it can only work out if you are not in conflict with Jeff's website and that you can earn 5 dollars via Paypall per visit from somebody, for a limited timeperiode of, lets say 2 hours. Just to make sure you you will have an income.
    Bert
     
  13. cthippo
    Joined: Sep 2010
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    Location: Bellingham WA

    cthippo Senior Member

    I don't know anything about Jeff's site, but I'm not into making money.

    I can do it as a static site or .pdf, but unless someone knows SQL or PHP I don't know how to make it searchable.
     
  14. Alik
    Joined: Jul 2003
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    Location: Thailand

    Alik Senior Member

    There is such catalogue on woodenboat site already.
     

  15. BertKu
    Joined: May 2009
    Posts: 2,521
    Likes: 47, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 223
    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    You are on Jeff's site. just go back to the home page and look under "boat plans" Maybe you can offer him your free of charge service to enlarge this section. http://www.boatdesign.net
    Bert
     
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