piss-poor boat plans!......

To add to PAR and Gonzo's statement about building by eye - to damn true, you are absolutely right of course! Also the majority of materials, no matter what it is will not always go where the drawing says it should! Watching the guy who built my last boat hanging a sheet of steel was a joy to behold, it flowed! OK so it wasn't EXACTLY like the plan but it all fitted together better (so did my first wife and the boatbuilder but that's a different story! nice guy really - **** if I'd have known I wouldn't have paid him so much!)

Guillermo; there's one of that title there already, I've said my bit but will add more if you wish!

And a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you all

 

I would have to agree with BulBob, 3d modeling is the best. It is the future of boat building. Like it or not. Most of the major US boat manufacturers have started to use 3d solid modeling for everything. I have seen everything from complete aircraft to luxory motor homes designed completely with 3d modeling. I use solid modeling exclusivley for all my design work.

 

Years back I started going directly from my CAD drawings to FULL size Lofting which agrees with the REAL world a little more, Hell drinking coffee I can get all the stations and long lines to a 40 foot Powerboat boat up before noon. Body sections and buttocks fairing by the end of the day!

Picked up and on the scrive table the next morning…. Point is this old system based in Napoleonic times it is still a Extremely powerful tool in this modern day.

I watch these geniuses getting Mylar frame patterns and such then scratch their heads Lost if the owner wants a small change in dimension I prefer to have it all on my wall (I loft vertically) Bulkheads, stringers, floors, transom.Locked in and mine!

Point being the machine is a great tool but!!! It is also a good way to spend unnecessary money.

Tooling I prefer CNC Plugs from In house CAD..

 

"I watch these geniuses getting Mylar frame patterns and such then scratch their heads Lost if the owner wants a small change in dimension I prefer to have it all on my wall (I loft vertically) Bulkheads, stringers, floors, transom.Locked in and mine!


Geez, and here I had the on-going use impression that repeated, minor changes in a general plan were decidedly easier with CAD based design tools. Boy, am I ever going to have to revisit the reality of drawing boats with that bit of news.

You guys have also not addressed the potential for manipulating small areas of the design and then applying hydrostatic, as well as FEA, VPP, etc. processes to see what particular iteration has the best performance by comparison.

The real power of CAD is in the ability to make virtually instant changes to an overall plan without having to laboriously redraw the lofted product. If the software is parametric, it changes all the elements that are in contact with the changed section as well.

I don't understand why you are seeing "these geniuses" having troubles as you indicate. Perhaps you could elaborate? The big shops invest in CAD because it saves time, increases profitability and it's a standard in the industry.

Chris

 

Look what is needed here is some remedial reading comprehension! WHERE did I say anything about not using CAD ACE ??

 

Chris now tell me about a electrinic spline and a fairing Batten ??

 

Chris now tell me how YOU would do this? a boat 13 meter Cat is strip planked over plywood frames ready for glass and the boss/owner wants the tunnel extended to the sponson tips and the shear also raised!! Oh BTW we are 9000 Miles from home!!

Would it NOT be easer if the thing was full size on a loft and these simple changes could be made with a colored pencil!!

You need some experience then come back!

 

They complement each other. Half models are 3D models. A computer is not the only way of making them. Lofting is also a 3D model, you just need to learn to read it. CAD is too restrictive for me. I resent having a programmer with no knowledge of boats giving me a few options in curves. My battens do what I want them to. However, when it comes to displacement calculations, CG, etc, I would not claim a planimeter and table of logarithms are better.

 

Right on, Gonzo. The "best" way to do anything has to be modified by the individual's resources, abilities and the objectives of the task. I fully acknowlege the great advantages of the computer and CAD in many aspects of boat design. At the same time, I have to realize my severe limitations in this CAD area.

Fortunately I am blessed with an aptitude for visualizing the 3D aspect of things drawn in 2D. When I design a boat or a house, I see the final shape of the thing from all angles before it gets laid out in 2D on paper. This is exactly opposite of the way CAD works.

That said, I sometimes take a design to a friend with a boat design program on his computer to do what it does best.

 

I worry that this creative part of our culture is being lost, as people are less able to afford single family houses with garages and home workshops. Plus few people have the time, because of working long hours and long commutes. So when the current DIY generation moves on, I wonder if there will be another to replace them.

I don't see giant unfinished hulls in people's backyards anymore, but I do see more homebuilt canoes, kayaks, etc. than ever. Maybe some of the folks building these will progress to larger craft.

--

 

You are right we lost a lot of what made this country unique there are no home workshops anymore to speak of, I had my fathers Boy Mechanic book when I was a small boy and he would work with me building projects from it. The best thing you can do for a kid but the computers are a part of life now days. Thank God I learned the Old -way from the old guys.

Personally I do not know how they do it I have spent hours answering what I consider stupid questions to these new guys. Why?

The old way before you did anything in the office you went thru the shop.

Some of he CNC operators now days were never machinists! So sometimes the work goes into the scrap pile! I can only guess when that Number exceeds the Pay they get fired union permitting! I have also seen a Major machine company that can’t find a real engine Lathe man that also says something..

 

Hey Gonzo don't let the modern "maureen architect" know about half models, they think they invented 3D (they can tell you the square root of an onion, they just can't get the lid off the jar!)! They ain't figured yet that those quaint old models of boats on the workshop wall actually have a use! Bless 'em! Actually CAD, like all things, when used properly and together with other things is a damn fine piece of kit! But unfortunately your electronic whizz kid use's it to the exclusion of everything else (mainly because they learned their trade by mail order overnight and can't use anything else!) Trouble is (apart from the developing nations, who use something called experience! because that's all they have!) it doesn't matter which country your in they're all the same!

 

War Whoop's rant

War Whoop... what's up with the business of getting up on your back legs?

You made your point. I made mine.

As far as I can tell, you managed to take it to a whole new level of foolishness with the personal attacks and repetitive postings that only serve to show your inability to manage your emotions over what should be a semi-detached discussion on the issues.

Nice work, there. I'm guessing you've had a bad holiday season and this is a safe place to vent your frustration. You can say that. All will be forgiven.

The cheetahcat.com site you include with your sign-off name is interesting. I must have counted some dozen or more indications in the posted copy that the firm uses the latest high-tech solutions for its boat production and yet you have a serious aversion to the very process to which you make your claims. I'll have to assume its only a marketing thing... that high-tech claim on the site.

Oh... and one more thing. Why don't you have the courage to post your real name instead of spouting off from behind the silly title of War Whoop? You want some respect for what you post? Then sack-up and step-out from behind the smoke screen. You'll be safe with us.

Chris

 

Sometimes it gets to be a contest to see who can piss from the highest place.

 

As has been pointed out by several, there are a few ways to skin a cat (sorry multi hull fans) and the conceptual stage has required a few things historically. One is a way for the designer to understand the relationship, of the sometimes quite convoluted shapes and more importantly, how to sell this shape to the folks plopping down the money. Several centuries ago this wasn't as big an issue, as the designer was usually employed by the builder, or at least trusted by the same and the client went to have a vessel, of such dimension, by such dimension built by the boat builder. The various yards and builders all had valued reputations, which reflected the design and construction efforts carried out. The owner just had to have the same trust in the builder as the builder had in the designer.

When designers started breaking out of the system, hanging their own shingles so to speak, the reputation of their abilities was mostly what carried them. The owner then contracted with the designer for a boat, possibly being involved with the builder, maybe not, surly making recommendations through. The designer was faced with showing something tangible to the prospective owner. He was also in need of making improvements on previous models. Cataloging the lines and construction details became necessary, for research and in sales efforts with possible clients.

Lines drawings can be difficult to comprehend, particularly to a business man that is interested in a faster ship 'round the horn or 'cross the pond, to beat the competitor to market. It is also difficult for some people, designers included, to have total faith in the 2 dimension renderings he's placed on paper. Believe it or not, some don't visualize as well as I suspect most of us do. Model carving solved this for many designers, though not all practiced the art. Many jobbed out the carving effort, but religiously checked it for accuracy. Pond and tank testing increased it's usefulness to the designer, but as a sales tool it really glowed.

There have been several Americas Cup contenders that have been built, purely on the presentation of the finely crafted model that was placed in the center of the conference table. I would imagine many yachts speculation have amounted to little more then a good or bad looking model.

With the advent of computers, modeling has taken a huge step. No longer does one have to squint an eye to envision himself at the helm of the proposed dream yacht, he's been discussing with the designer, he literally can see the ship in several million colors, angles and level of detail. The designer is also able to work out issues that before may have required a cockpit mockup, for example, to insure winch placement was within reach of the person grinding without fouling something. Engine oil drain plugs can be designed so a human hand, holding a wrench can remove it, long before a yard foreman has to mention lifting the engine mount a few inches for the needed clearance.

3D modeling has taken many forms and it's likely not done yet. I think that all the modeling forms are necessary at some times and for some people. Personally, I'm more comfortable with lofting out an issue, building a template and literally sitting in the problem. I am lucky that I think in 3D and naturally draw in 3D. I would think most craftsmen have this ability, to see what's "in the stone" before it's cut. Whatever the dimensional crutch we use to help visualization, it's an evolving development and will be superseded by the next latest and greatest addition to our assorted tool bins.