piss-poor boat plans!......

Most boat plans purchased, by a very large majority, don't get built, for many reasons. Historically home building anything, soap box derby racers, tree forts, backyard jungle jyms for the kids, a new TV stand (my Christmas present to the one that must be obeyed), furniture, window benches and all the little things that make a craftsman's home a bit more warm and fuzzy, just doesn't get done by well over 90% of the population.

The others subscribe to WoodButcher Magazine, look at the pretty pictures and drawings, thinking "I can do that . . ." but then they don't. It's the rare breed that still changes his oil in the car or is willing to yank out a balky water pump (I did last month) un-intimidated by the lump of shiny plastic incrusted engine that doesn't resemble the ones of my youth. We've done it to ourselves for the most part. Insisting on food, gas, shopping and a church on every street corner has reduced our need to be self-sufficient substantially. We drive down to the corner to pick our kids from the bus stop. I'm fortunate to live in an area where seeing a horse or two come down the lane isn't uncommon. Just before last weekend the lady on the other side of the road did just this with both of her little ones in tow (literally) sitting nicely in a couple of plastic RedFlyer replacements strung behind on a rope tether.

Many of the projects to someday get launched, languish about for years, decades even, as if some magic spell will bring back the spark that started it going. This is an all to common trend and again nothing new as the 40' hulks of ferro and steel left over from the craze in the 70's pile up in local land fills and junk yards. I was in an automotive bone yard a month ago looking for a bracket and saw a large, very rusted hull, that never got past the shell stage. It lived in the guy's backyard in that condition for two decades, before he sold the house and it "had to go" as a condition of sale (not an uncommon find for what it's worth, there everywhere)

The folks that gather here, with the exception of a few cast outs from other web sites, or romantics with no tools, skills or money, generally are past the dreaming and looking at pretty pictures stage and are actually interested in giving it a shot, if they haven't already. I suspect the large portion of folks that regularly log on here have built or are now building, working, repairing or restoring a boat. This is considerable different then many other sites that have either a very limited range of interests or is little more then a venue for advertising revenue.

Back in the 50's when hand held power tools (I have quite a few of these old monsters) really took off, every man's garage was a den of creation, a vessel that would give birth to something new each month, at least if you bought into the advertising hype and read too many copies of Popular Mechanics. Most guy had a garage full of lawn mowers, garden tools, kids bikes and other toys, a couple of saw horses that haven't done anything since they cut the crap out of their finger trying to plane down the edge of that sticky front door two years earlier.

The simple facts are that we are a very rare type of people. We actually build things. Everyone else would rather not be bothered and pick something out from Wal-Mart. These are the same people that can't understand you built that bird house and are insisting they be told where you got it. No one in my area mistakes me for this. All they have to do is come into the yard and it becomes quickly clear, but then again I'm likely in several code violations and am glad I'm in the woods where the county would be hard pressed to find someone to ***** about my mess about the barn and less then first rate grass growing in the front yard. I got things to do; putting down fertilizer and planting flowers around my plastic manatee look-a-like mail box (mine has realistic looking fresh prop marks on it's back), isn't one of them.

 

Hey Par you going to Mount Dora THis year?

 

Nice post PAR!

 

I have had a tough time understanding just what the original complaint was about. Boat plans run from tiny, almost illegible, free plans in magazines to the most complete step-by-step, fully illustrated kind. The complete wish list given by a couple of posters is great, but it does not fit all kinds of construction. A complete table of offsets is useless to the builder of a S&G canoe or skiff. In fact, more than a few "offsets" is likely to create an unfair hull in S&G. There is much to be said for the build-it-by-eye methods used by many. Most of the traditional boats built in my area were built this way, without a single offset measurement. Many still are, even large boats.

What looks like the optimum set of plans to one builder (or dreamer) will not be what others want to see. Some like the older blueprint style with everything profusely dimensioned on a few large sheets of paper. Many current plans are produced on 11 x 17 sheets with other kinds of additions. Some add text instructions with detail sketches of individual components. Some provide a CD with many photos of the construction and finished boat. Some may even add videos on a CD. Some provide other information that the novice might like or that the experienced builder will find useful. Some designers will not release a plan until a prototype is built and the plans corrected or modified accordingly. Some whip out plans on a computer one day and slap them on a website for sale the next day. Some try to give realistic cost and building time estimates and some are totally unrealistic, especially on building time.

In addition to what comes in the mail, a good designer will be receptive to questions from the builder to help them stay out of, or get out of, a jam. Some are available on and respond to email, some don't. Some are available on and respond to the phone, some don't. Some will only respond to snail mail and some don't communicate at all.

A careful plans buyer will know which of these they are dealing with before buying and act accordingly. It may be that most who wind up with a pig in a poke were looking for a cheap pig in the first place. Price is an indicator of quality but not the only one, or even the best one.

 

I beg to differ. A set of plans without table of offsets is like a woman without ****.
That said, any decent builder will loft a set of plans, no matter if it was hand drawn or developed by some fancy software.........

 

Yeah good post PAR - you just about hit it right to my view!
Guillermo - see what your sayin' but despite our bitching and pontificating most of us like the forum the way it is! As PAR said most of us have done something (unlike some 85 - 90% of the so called civilised world:?: ) so all we're doing most of the time is chatting over a beer with like minded friends, as you would down the local cantena/bar or where ever you hang out! Therefore in the manner of most guys we get a little over the top sometime: but **** we're back the next day for another go, and normally so is the other guy - no offense meant nor taken! Now it works like this, if that's the way you are, welcome to the gang (a hundred thousand welcomes) if not go and find somebody who operates in your style and enjoy! just don't try to change us - hell I like taking the piss, and this lot like getting one over on me (probably more so! ) and quite often do! **** I'm in a serious mood tonight, but you see what I mean - your go!

 

I don't really understand the entire issue.

Most designers offer study plans so you can see the quality and details of the plans, and most designers tell you what will be in the plan pack you order.

Antually, most of the study plans I have ever got (quite a few) were already so complete and detailed that anybody with a just a little bit of understanding of the process could actually have gone and build the boat, and they gave a very clear indication of what to expect, a list of plans missing etc.

If you think it's good, order, if not, don't. You get what you order and pay for, no? Why complain?

 

They are serious - you just don't have to be a miserable devil in the telling do you? or do you?

 

Actually, Caldera boats shows ignorance of boatbuilding history and techniques. For milennia boats have been built on the eye. Later, half models came to be. Drafted plans are a very modern invention that is by no means necessary.

 

Gonzo has hit on a point I made in another thread some weeks ago. The latest trends in plans sets generally don't include offsets on simple small pleasure craft. As Gonzo pointed out designs were developed by eye for thousands of years, only in recent history have methods changed the way things are presented.

Then the point of a really unfair boats being built if more then minimal offsets are offered in the stitch and glue forms so popular today. Tom is perfectly correct that it would be near imposable to spring a scarfed topside panel to it's offset dimensions. These designs require some latitude in the shape of the hull, some having a little more or less in various curves and shapes around the boat.

A few years ago I designed and built two of five skiffs for a local lake rental outfit. The two I built weighed within 10 pounds of each other and stacked sheer to sheer, are pretty close to being the same, though differences were visible. The other three, built locally, were slightly heavier and each of them had slight differences. I noticed these differences, I drew and built the first two, but few else would see these differences. They perform the same, all having the same make and HP outboards, though interestingly enough, my constructed boats have a flatter wake, by a very small amount and the bow wave piles up in a spot slightly forward of the other three. Likely trim, but I really don't care, they're safe, solid and doing what they were intended to do.

I mentioned (in the other thread) boats in south America that are built with one station mold (65 footers) planks nailed to the stem and stern, sprung around according to the master builder's whim of the month. To me this is truly art, craftsmanship and knowledge past through many years of building.

I offer several 18" x 24" sheets to the needs of the builder, not the client. Though the client does contract the vessel, the builder is the one who must make sense of it all. I talk with the builder and if I don't know them, I find out what they need in terms of detail and pull outs. With the handful of 18x24's I supply a detailed set, of what I think needs to be accurately described, details for the builder. This may be little more then a scantling list (if I'm well familiar with the builder) or a more finely honed booklet, possibly with extra drawings. This doesn't mean offsets in the traditional fashion necessarily, but most of my work has some sort of system. My tape and goo designs don't have the usual offset table, but rather a general dimensions drawing with instructions on how to achieve the dimensions.

As Tom noted, the better designers are available, answer questions and can trouble shoot when necessary. Plans sets form an old magazine or a dead designer don't offer this and can be the biggest difference between a successful outcome and a hulk that rests uncomfortably in the backyard until the elements force it's removal to the dump.

As you can see Guillermo, though we may venture off track for a spell, we often times manage to find a way back.

Wdnboatbuilder, I'll be at Mt Dora's show like most years, unless something real important comes up. As it stands now, I'm planning on attending, likely with a couple of projects in tow. Touch base with me at the end of February and I'll let you know which ones they'll be (I sure don't know now) We can stop by my buddies cigar shop, suck down a few beers and have a good smoke. Gonzo, will you make the Mt Dora show, or will you be back in the great white north by then?

 

Alright how long you been going to the show? I 'm trying to get a boat ready for my dad for the show.
I agree we do tend to go from the heart of the subject to way of track but I thought that is what conversation is about.

 

safewalrus:
It's not at all my intention to discuss personalized matters, just would like to see a little bit of more respect around here.
If you or others want to deeply discuss about personal behaviours among this boating community, then I'd rather like to open a new thread at the Open Discussion Forum, not here. I propose to do it under the title: Why there are no women (seemingly) in these Boatdesign Forums?
What do you think?

PAR: I did not mention anybody in particular in my post, sorry if you have felt offended.

 

3D Modeling is Best

I agree that plans are usually very poor quality. 3D modeling is really the only way to go today. If anyone wants help with visualizing I am pretty darn good at 3D. 3D Models can be used to produce small prototypes using stereolithography. The cost for the prototypes is based on material required so the smaller scale the cheaper and making them hollow really reduces the cost. This worked great for making prototypes for my patented fishing floats and I do not see why it would not work for any design testing.

 

BulBob: you'll find thousands of us disagreeing. What advantages do you see to 3D modeling that make it an absolute better in all respects? Experienced people, specially boatbuilders, visualize things before putting them to paper or building them. It is a fallacy to think that pretty drawings make up for knowledge. 3D models can't tell you how to build every detail and in which order. Also, what makes you say that plans are of poor quality? Please give us some examples of good designers that don't provide good plans.

 

conceptual stage

I'm just talking about the conceptual stage. I know what is need in the end are real plans using real materials. For the time and money you can not argue that new technologies are not better for simply proving a design theory. 3D and SLA is a better way.