piss-poor boat plans!......

An amateur design, by its nature, will have shortcomings. It is not required to have anything in particular. If some fool buys them to save money, and it makes him proud, well it is all said. Most people buy boats plans that haven't been built because they want something unique or to win races. There is nothing wrong with it.
An offset table and scantlings is all that is necessary. All the rest is unnecessary. Accurately scaled plans are unrealistic. Paper changes with humidity and temperature changes.

 

You want all of the items you listed…AND, you want them for $125? You may need to do a lot more ***-kissing to get them. LOL!

Merry Christmas!

 

I'm going to try again to atach my presentation drawing.

Her goes.

 

oh ok...I've seen this one on another thread.

I think that will be a nice project.

 

A very good list - there are exceptions, but if the above list is not covered reasonably well, then the plans are probably not worth the candle. There are probably some exceptions too - like with smaller stitch and glue boats there is no need for offsets.

The final statement however is not logical - SOMEONE has to build the first boat! It does depend more than a bit on track record too.

Even building a prototype may not be enough to show that the thing works well.

I can think of many examples of poor boats that have become quite popular to first time builders (and first time sailors) because they have no reference points in their experience, so little in the way of expectations.

Just think of all the classic plans that Francis Herreshoff, Mower, Garden and others have been printed in "The Rudder" magazine - most of them were not prototyped.

However the situation is very different now with anyone who has drawn up a boat can sel the plans worldwide. Or give the plans away over the net.

In my work I deal with many of the problems that come up because of "free plans" or poorly resolved plans.

My sense is that every designer - even professionals - are truly excellent at some aspects of creating a plan and pretty poor at one or two others. There are designers that do fantastic bills of materials, but are careless with offsets, there are ones that design great looking boats but have a poor sense of construction procedure. And so on.

THAT INCLUDES MYSELF - I know I have weaknesses and strengths and a checklist like the above is a damn fine way of pulling myself into line.

Anyone who reckons their plans are perfect is fooling themselves - there is always room for improvement.

However - and here is the rub for plan consumers - it takes a LOT of time to develop up a plan that covers all the above aspects.

For example for my Eureka Canoe plan which covers the above list (no table of offsets though - the boat is stitch and glue, prototypes have been built to check the panel shapes) - just the plan - took about 3 weeks to complete.

This breaks down to
Design the hullshape and produce the developed panel shapes - 6 hours
To do the documentation to guide a first time builder through the process - materials lists, give a rundown on using epoxy - 110 hours
So I can't sell plans for this simple canoe for less that $75 Australian which has to cover quite a bit of postage and copying - as the extra work increases the bulk of the plans

Spending these sorts of time frames means that the plan just can't be sold cheaply or given away free.

So I guess my advice to buyers is
1/ You get what you pay for - in general - eg. I am sure there are some excellent free plans that someone gives away out of the kindnesso of their heart - but in general free plans are worth nothing at all.

2/ I would rephrase the "DON'T buy an unprototyped plan" to - Don't buy an unprototyped plan from a designer who has not track record unless you are prepared to take a substantial risk.

Michael Storer
www.ozemail.com.au/~storerm

 

Excellent point!

Some designers have great track records and I would be happy to build one of thier boats for the first time....

 

From a simple sailor's viewpoint (and to a certain point covering the above) have you ever noticed that the designer's or whatever you want to call 'em never have to either clean the bloody things or make 'em work after they've gone wrong (and that includes maintenance)!

The above statement is true no matter the size of vessel from a simple kayak to a million ton tanker (but I bet that'll make 'em bleat - the darlings)!

 

Some designers that go boating a lot or race are exceptions. For example, Herreshoff, Frers and Olin Stephens. The majority learn more theory than practice. I think a strong theretical knowledge is good, but without practical knowledge it produces some strange aberrations.

 

I may be able to help you fix these plans so you can build from them. No cost, just helping out a fellow forum member. Drop me an e-mail if you are interested.
calderaboats@gmail.com

 

What an interesting thread

 

Ditto Gonzo's remarks about what is truly needed in a plans set. An experienced builder will make up molds from the offsets and have a look at the scantlings for the boat. Then all bets are off on how the deeds are performed, most having their own way of handling issues or methods, regardless of what a set of drawings defines. Once a skilled builder realizes how light or heavy the boat is intended from the scantlings, they build the boat. The plans may call for a tapered pocket joint and the builder may use a ship lap or scarf, but the build goes on. An amiture builder needs all the help they can get and this calls for much more detail and effort on the designer's part. Exspecting these plans to be low cost is silly.

Anyone looking for low priced/free plans, motives should be questioned. The cost of plans is but a small fraction of the build cost, why cut corners in this department, it is the definition of the vessel. I usually design around a builder, knowing what they will use and what they will do their way. Some folks shouldn't be building boats until they remodel the house (the whole house) only then will they have a clue what they're getting into. Most of the people looking for low cost plans also want cheaper planking options and will ask if suspended ceiling tile can be substituted for the expensive engine room insulation, etc. These are plans sets sold, but boats that will not likely be completed. Once they price out the planking and framing stock, the plans get stuffed in a drawer. These people shouldn't be allowed to build boats. You can build a longboat from popsicle sticks, but what's the point if you don't have an ice-cream manufacture in your pocket.

 

Plans for kraphtsmen.

I would agree with you totally, Par. Except.

I have bought plans, myself, for boats I have never built. And those wonderous peices of paper transported me, at least temporarily, out of a miserable life of mindless repetition and very limited prospects.

Most people today will never fulfill thier dreams. And there are probably as many reasons for that as there are people. Some people 'just don't try hard enough', some are stymied by other commitments, and some just plainly suffer the lack of opportunity.

The reality of this new century is, I believe, going to be one of restriction, not expansion. The era of cheap energy is very likely to be comming to a close. And for us Americans, this is very bad news. We are a culture of mobility, both lateraly and vertical. And this has always been fueled by first cheap land, then by cheap energy.

Now we face a future much like one Europe has 'enjoyed' for almost two centuries. A world of stiffling social class distinctions, nanny state style regulations, and a permanant 'expert' and ruling class which one is more likely to be born into rather than be elevated into by his or her own efforts.

Even access to the most simple things is being claimed exclusively by the rich and their shrinking number of ever more affluent hangers on. I read in the paper the other day that 'general public' marinas are disappearing only to be replaced by 'dockuminiums' to be owned by the owners of 500k and up condominiums, who cannot stand the teeniest smudge on thier shiny, chrome plated 'perfect world'.

But I cannot give up. My ancesters left Europe because they had to. They were just plain unfit to live there. They were too uppity, restless, and just plain ornery. When faced with the choice of stealing land from stone aged natives an ocean away or being fleeced by local 'nobles', they made the only decision they could. They came.

So I used to buy plans for boats I would never build. Now I draw them. It's cheaper and it makes the dream last just that much longer. And it helps me to hang on. Who knows what new America this new century will spawn. Will it be a 'theoPlutocracy', complete with its own 'divine right of corporations and corporate kings', or will it be a boisterous hive of anarchic socialists that will give the people with the power as well as the people with the money a whole new set of reasons 'not to make the natives restless'.

I draw boats that can be launched from pickup trucks and snowmobile trailers.
I draw boats that, hopefully, can cross oceans, but need no ballast castings, furniture standadard carpentry techniques, nor any fancy, high tech, 'composite materials'. And I draw boats for 'kraphtsmen' such as myself, who have to look at a clock to see which way to turn the screw.

After all, the dream has very little staying power if it's not at least somewhat credible.

Bob

 

Thanks for the generous offer Caldera. I have another set of plans I think I'm going to use, but if I change my mind I will certainly let you know. I do appreciate the kind offer. Have a safe and happy New Year!

cet

 

I had bought a set of plans they gave some information but what I wanted to know was where was the CB and CG so I called the designer and I was told I did not need that information the plan was all figured out just place the console where ot is drawn. I was not pleased with tis answer so I have wasted 75.00 or I will spend the time to play the simpson's game. Oh yea it was a 15' OB skiff.

 

Did this thread just take a right turn I missed?