Pilothouses vs. canvas cockpit covers

[mattotoole]

In the "passagemaker" thread I see a lot of pilothouse designs. I can appreciate being out of the weather and sun as much as anyone. But having spent the last 6 summers on a center cockpit sailboat with a canvas cockpit cover, I'm completely sold on the idea. Now a pilothouse or inside steering station seems like a waste of space to me. The cover also makes the cockpit into a lovely sunroom, adding greatly to living space.

So what do you all think of cockpit covers? Too vulnerable or maintenance inten$ive? Or efficient and versatile, maximizing onboard space? Why do I not see more well-integrated, half-and-half designs, with a hard windshield, etc? I do see a lot of them, but most are ugly because they were obviously an afterthought.

[FAST FRED]

The cockpit canvas cover is an "after the build" tack on solution to someones percieved needs.

The pilot house is built as an intergal part of the design from the start.

Like most things a conept of what you need BEFORE building the boat is a great help.

I have sailed with doggers (better than nothing), foward fixed protection with canvas aft , better than a dodger, and fixed designed as part of the vessel.

For off season sailing a fixed pilot house is surely the best as they can be heated , and keep the crew on watch within the interior, where its harder to go missing.

Our current boat has a quite large pilothouse 12ft X 10ft that is a luxury , as the overhead can be well insulated and sound proofed so keeping warm or cool at anchor or underway is a snap.

FAST FRED

[D'ARTOIS]

It is what Fred says, a Pilothouse is a protective steering post, mostly fitted out with an intern steering unit, chart-table etc.

A doghouse is a solid cover that protects the helmsman against heavy spray, where he can find refuge if the weathr becomes bad.

A pilothouse is in general more spacey and luxurious than a doghouse.

[safewalrus]

Depends on where you sail, and how, to my mind! If it's day trips in the Med or Carib yeah canvas roof, it'll be down most of the time anyway! Long overnight passages in the North Sea, Newfoundland or the like then you can't beat the 'Glass Oilskin'! again type goes with area! But in port (and most cruisers spend a lot [most] of their time in port) it gives an extra enclosed cabin - if only to get away from the rest! I's needed by everyone occasionally!

[Raggi_Thor]

Canvas may protect against sun and "in the harbour with no wind rain", but not against nasty weather.
It was an interesting story in Practical Boat Owner, on the first sail home with a new boat the sprayhood was torn off or in pieces.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by Raggi_Thor

Canvas may protect against sun and "in the harbour with no wind rain", but not against nasty weather.
It was an interesting story in Practical Boat Owner, on the first sail home with a new boat the sprayhood was torn off or in pieces.

This hasn't been my experience. I'm sure there are plenty of flimsy ones around but that doesn't mean they all are. The one I've had the pleasure of living with is over 7 years old, completely watertight in all weather. It has withstood hurricane force winds several times, at least while in the marina. The unknown quantity is huge breaking waves offshore.

As far as heat goes, we sit inside in t-shirts in 40 degree F weather in driving wind an rain. It's perfectly dry and holds heat coming up from the cabin just fine. It's the warmest place on the boat in the morning when the sun comes up. When it gets too warm inside we just open a few flaps or zip the sides completely off, which takes seconds.

We do have a glass windshield. What I don't understand is why there aren't more designs like this, hybrid hard/soft covers, etc.

[Vega]

There are. Almost, if not all European center cockpit boats (Rassy, Najad,Sunbeam etc) have that as an option, that is mostly used in port.

The difference to a pilot house (not speaking in resistance or glass visibility all around) is that a pilot house offers that possibility plus the open cockpit outside, permiting that everybody uses the space it suits them better (the ones that like outdoor live style even with some cold will stay outside, the ones that prefer it cosy, will stay inside, but not out of the scenery).
With a covered cockpit you end up without an open cockpit. Less choice available.

[Robjl]

Couldn't agree more Mattotoole,
I've always regarded the afterthoughts as dog ugly and just looking at them I can't imagine that they can work.
However I have always appreciated the removeable cockpit shelters coupled with a solid windshield as the ideal compromise.
I cruise, and my needs will be different from others.
But mine must serve three functions;
A bit of solid protection from the seas & wind when sailing hard on the wind but otherwise open, obviously for those fine days, and maybe some shade for the helm.
A low covered ( minimum windage) spot to sit against the aft face of the cabin to get out of the weather when sailing in foul weather.
Full cockpit cover when at anchor or motoring on those stinking hot days when shade is a must.
I also carry a monster shade that goes from fence to fence over the boom and shades the cabin and deck... used about once a year when the water is like a sheet of glass and it's hot enough to fry eggs on deck.... we get that sometimes.
Otherwise I like to stand at the wheel, breeze on my cheek, and nothing between me and the horizon.
I'm building a new boat now and haven't considered side curtains.....
Yours sounds good,.... any chance of a photo?
Cheers
Rob

[Raggi_Thor]

Originally Posted by mattotoole

This hasn't been my experience. I'm sure there are plenty of flimsy ones around but that doesn't mean they all are. The one I've had the pleasure of living with is over 7 years old, completely watertight in all weather. It has withstood hurricane force winds several times, at least while in the marina. The unknown quantity is huge breaking waves offshore.
...
We do have a glass windshield. What I don't understand is why there aren't more designs like this, hybrid hard/soft covers, etc.

OK, I know, the story in Practical Boat Owner included some braking waves over deck, I think. Some spray hoods and cockpit tents may be very strong, while others are made just to keep the rain out.

[FAST FRED]

IF a pilot house is to be aboard ,

it needs to be built strong enough to survive (and add to the righting moment) if knocked down.

With most PH the interior is open to the PH so loss of it at a critical time could mean rapid flooding below.

Rather hard to do with a canvas dodger , yet the companion way is usually unsecured under the dodger.

FAST FRED

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

IF a pilot house is to be aboard ,

it needs to be built strong enough to survive (and add to the righting moment) if knocked down.

With most PH the interior is open to the PH so loss of it at a critical time could mean rapid flooding below.

Rather hard to do with a canvas dodger , yet the companion way is usually unsecured under the dodger.

FAST FRED

Good points. I guess with a soft cover you don't have the structural issues of building a strong pilothouse, especially where big windows are involved. You only have to deal with a normal cabin structure. The cover would then be sacrificial in case of a rollover. Of course cleaning up the bent and twisted mess would be a problem, at a time when you least need it.

[Packeteer]

i was thinking I could use clear roofing sheets for the front/top of a PH and canvas for the sides

this UK website has plenty of examples: http://www.polycarbonatesheets.co.uk/

[u4ea32]

I had canvas on my boat: a cavas T-top over welded aluminum tubing, with eisenglass set into canvas with zippers and bolt ropes.

After 4.5 years in Virgina, Florida, and California, the canvas top was rotten and tearing.

Always, the canvas was not too waterproof. I like to store life jackets overhead in the t-top. These, along with the aluminum cross members, put localized loads on the canvas. Like a finger in the top of a tent, all these localized pressure areas allowed water to propagate through the top, so it would be raining inside when the spray was washing over the boat.

Therefore, I replaced the canvas with a fiberglass top that was custom molded in a female mold by Finco in Santa Ana, CA. The cost was double the cost of the canvas replacement, but it looks FAR better, it does not leak, its strong enough to stand on so we can (and do) climb up on top and dive off or lounge around or get a better view.

After these years, there was not a single time I wish the top was not up: when its hot, you want the shade. When its cold, you want the warmth. When its rough, you want the protection. When you're anchored, you want the extra deck space and diving board. You always need someplace for antennae.

There are times I take the eisenglass off: on hot humid days in Florida, on 100+ degree days on Lake Havasu, and even the rare uncomfortably hot days in California (a few per year perhaps). So I am glad its not a proper pilothouse.

I have sailed from California to Europe twice with dodgers. We never took them down in 25k miles on either boat. They were very, very sturdy, as we could (and had to) stand on them to reef the main. They took the several feet of white water washing across the decks in heavy Atlantic and Caribbean conditions without tearing, but they were brand new both times. And very sturdy, far tougher than anything I've seen on any production boat.

I have had very bad experiences with lesser dodgers too: most recently having one tear off when we stuffed the bow surfing a wave, giving my wife one hell of a black eye.

[FAST FRED]

For foilks that leave the dodgers up and dont expect them to be foulded,
Sunbrella sells a special HEAVY fabric that is normally used just to cover boats. Grey in color.

Here in Ft Meyers FL it lasted 11 years , till Willma took it flying.

FAST FRED

[Eric Sponberg]

On my Globetrotter 45 design, I have both a small pilot house and a canvas dodger. From my time at sea, when you are spending days and weeks on the water, you need a pilot house in which to stand watch. Even in the tropics, it is no fun to stand watch outside in the damp at night--it would be much more comfortable to stay inside--hence the pilot house, which has a helm station and chart table.

But I also like aft cockpit boats a lot--you see the whole boat in front of you as you are sailing. And you don't want to be covered all the time. So I came up with the Globetrotter 45 for an easy-to-sail boat for 2-4 people for offshore passages, which has an open aft cockpit and a pilot house with inside steering. The sides and top of the pilot house extend aft about 18" past the bulkhead so that you have protected seats port and starboard at the front of the cockpit. That is, you have the hard shell around you, but it is open to the back. This back could be closed off with a canvas screen to keep it really dry.

Then, over the whole cockpit, I show a canvas dodger that can close off the entire space. This makes the cockpit another enclosed room. Overall, this design is very versatile, employing the features of both the pilot house and the canvas dodger. It is really difficult to create a two-cabin boat with a pilot house in 45', but I think I have done it pretty well. Here is the link to the page on the Globetrotter 45: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm.

Eric