The perfect Passagemaker IV, Equipment

Peers we choose our toys and gimmicks here.

For starters, having not seen the related threads it is advisable to read them before comments are posted.
We have by so far boiled down the boat we call perfect (or as close as possible), to the following results:

The perfect Passagemaker? (style within this genre)

The perfect Passagemaker? II (building material)

The perfect Passagemaker III, propulsion

The favourite style is either the classical "North Sea Trawler", which I would build at around 22 Meter LOA,



or
the "Gentlemens Yacht", which I would build at some 25 Meter LOA





The material will be steel hull with Al. superstructure, according to the poll results and comments. Most probably both will be build.

The propulsion is a single engine CPP setup in the 25ltr displacement range for the Trawler,
a single Grenaa diesel CPP setup for the Yacht.
________________________________________________________________

Now, what do we call sensible, required, desirable or affordable when it comes to the more or less substantial equipment?

Is a second radar a must? (I guess we must not discuss the need of one?)
Is a integrated bridge system with all bells and whistles a sensible investment?
For proper communications at sea (to contradict here) a Inmarsat system?
What about a bus system?
Do we need AC in every compartement?
A walk in fridge/freezer room to store our provisions for 90 days? (the required redundancy)
Stabilizer fins (hydraulic) or paravanes? (valid only for the Trawler!!!!)
Stern thruster, or skilled skipper?
(a bowthruster will be called mandatory anyway, so I left it out)

Watermaker is a must (at least to balance fuel consumption), therefore not to be discussed.
Same is valid for all safety equipment incl. anchor systems, all have to be in accordance with the recent IMO/SOLAS requirements for commercial ships licensed for unrestricted operation.

Not to bother the followers and contributors of the Passagemaker threads, but it has to be said again (there are always members not willing or too stupid to read before they drivel), therefore:

NO COMMENTS ON SAILING VESSELS, OR BOATS OF DIFFERENT SIZE, STYLE, MATERIAL OR PROPULSION, PLEASE READ THE FORMER THREADS!

ALL opinions are welcome, all comments about personal preferences are equally welcome.
Do not hesitate to elaborate on personal experience with specific systems or even brands.
But please Mates, stay on topic.

I provided two tick boxes for the items I probably have forgotten, do not tick them before a sensible question appears.

The poll is multiple choice, the voters hidden, the game is opened!

Thank you for contributing
Richard

[mydauphin]

Hey, I voted first to I get a prize?

Originally Posted by mydauphin

Hey, I voted first to I get a prize?

Of course.

Six weeks canoe excursion tour at the Norwegian Riviera! (Lofot to Hammerfest)
Valid 01.01.2011 - 01.04.2011.

Due to the fact that you ticked the two senseless boxes ! ! ! You have to bring your own canoe.

[mydauphin]

3 vhf, 2 vhf antennas, at least 2 gps, compass, several voltmeters
2 Depth finder/Sounder, Watermaker, Rain collection system, Computer with many stored dvds and music. Analog and HD tv.
Multiple refrigirators/freezer and one horizontal deep freeze.
LED emergency lighting system
many Bilge Pumps
engine driven bilge pumps
Co2 and other smoke detectors
Fire control system
Multiple charging systems
Multiple generator, one large, one small just in case
Handheld vhf and gps
Solar water heater, fishing rod, fish scaler, Wok

[TeddyDiver]

ps (pre script) radars: long range FURUNO and a broadband for closeups..

Originally Posted by mydauphin

3 vhf, 2 vhf antennas, at least 2 gps, compass, several voltmeters
2 Depth finder/Sounder
I need 3. One conventional, a side scan sonar with a towfish and 3d front view
, Watermaker, Rain collection system, Computer with many stored dvds and music. Analog and HD tv.
Multiple refrigirators/freezer and one horizontal deep freeze.
LED emergency lighting system
many Bilge Pumps
for separate compartments
engine driven bilge pumps
Co2 and other smoke detectors
Fire control system
Multiple charging systems
Multiple generator, one large, one small just in case
Handheld vhf and gps
Solar water heater, fishing rod, fish scaler, Wok

and for me also a dive compressor, storage tanks, oxygen membrane, nitrox station and decompression chamber would nice too.. and maybe a Newt suit

[mydauphin]

Forgot to mention third vhf is sitting in box under my bunk in case of lighting hit frying everything.

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by apex1

Is a second radar a must? (I guess we must not discuss the need of one?)

On something of this size and price, why not? I don't carry radar right now (even a cheap one is worth more than my boat). But in a small ship (and you are talking small ships, Richard), a kick-ass long range Furuno primary, and a secondary short range / high resolution unit for picking out nearby buoys and small craft, would be my selection. No point in referencing specific models yet, as the choices will have changed so much by the time the ship is built.

Is a integrated bridge system with all bells and whistles a sensible investment?
For proper communications at sea (to contradict here) a Inmarsat system?
What about a bus system?

Integrated bridge systems? Hmm. Some of them look pretty cool, I'm just not convinced that I can trust the things. I don't want a single point failure to knock out all the instruments, plotter, radar, autopilot, etc. I'm also not thrilled by the price tags (NavNet3D's black box is $11,000, the displays are $4k to $7k each... I've heard of complete NavNet3D systems coming in over $100k installed). But if the money's there, and the reliability can be proven (I want proof that a chartplotter bug isn't going to make the autopilot go haywire), it'd be pretty cool to have a full "glass cockpit" with all the gadgets.

Inmarsat's new ISatPhonePro is cheaper than Canadian prepaid cellphones, if you buy airtime in bulk. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

By a "bus system", do you mean NMEA 2000, Ethernet, something like that? N2K seems like a given for a fancy electronics installation these days...

Do we need AC in every compartement?

I don't think I do, but again, this is a multi-million-dollar, 100+ tonne yacht we're talking about. Personally, I'd prefer good ventilation and fans, and sticking to climates where you're comfortable (if you don't like the heat, stay out of the Caribbean in July).

A walk in fridge/freezer room to store our provisions for 90 days? (the required redundancy)

I'd prefer several smaller fridge compartments over one big one.... a more efficient use of space, less cold air wasted when the doors are opened, and they can be zoned for different temp/humidity to keep the food fresher.

Stabilizer fins (hydraulic) or paravanes? (valid only for the Trawler!!!!)
Stern thruster, or skilled skipper?
(a bowthruster will be called mandatory anyway, so I left it out) equally welcome.

I trust hydraulics a fair bit more than I trust electrics, and would go this route for thrusters, fins, windlasses, etc. (I don't have anything against electrical systems- they can be very reliable if well engineered- it's just that so much commercially available electric stuff is badly designed and cheaply built, while hydraulic parts tend to be better designed and more solidly built.) I really don't know if hydraulic fins are needed, not without knowing a lot more about the hull shape and weight distribution- but it certainly wouldn't hurt to make sure there's a reinforced, watertight bay in which to install them.
I've never handled a single screw boat this big, so I can't speak from personal experience re. thrusters. I do know that in the kind of places I like to visit (canals, tight coves, etc.) bow and stern thrusters would be a Very Good Idea. If you prefer to anchor out in the open or use spacious commercial piers, perhaps they're not so important.

If the gadgetry budget is large, I would likely place a searchlight or sector sonar (Furuno CH250 or CH37, perhaps) ahead of a secondary radar on the priorities list. On a boat like this, the damage from one hard grounding in a tight anchorage might be several multiples of the cost of the sonar.

Originally Posted by marshmat

Today that would be a 2117xx at about 20k $ and a simrad broadband at 2k$

Yes, Navnet 3d is what I mean here. Alltogether about 40k$, not 100. But I would have a 2117 as a independent (and commercial grade) backup as well.

The displays must not be the highest marine quality! A simple, but dimmable computer lcd screen does it for some pennies. (Furuno provides ethernet bus as standard, no problem to connect the display)

Yeah

No, I thought about a el.distribution bus system like Empirbus or Victron

Whith walk in, I do not mean one single compartement, but a Room which is heavily insulated and provides several different compartments with different temperatures and humidity levels, incl subzero.

Concur

I handled single screw, no thruster ships up to over 40 meter. Engines and gear operated from engine room only (telegraph). Of course it is possible, sure not easy to learn.

[marshmat]

No, I thought about a el.distribution bus system like Empirbus or Victron

I don't trust these things yet. When I can repair a failed control node myself in Vanuatu using tools I have on board and parts I can get locally, I might consider it. If it needs parts and an engineer flown in on next-day air courier when it goes down, I don't want it on board. Maybe someday these distributed bus systems will be cheap enough and reliable enough for a voyaging boat- for now, I think they're a bit too pricey and a bit too hard to fix when compared to conventional breaker panels with individual +/- wires.

Originally Posted by marshmat

I don't trust these things yet. When I can repair a failed control node myself in Vanuatu using tools I have on board and parts I can get locally, I might consider it. If it needs parts and an engineer flown in on next-day air courier when it goes down, I don't want it on board. Maybe someday these distributed bus systems will be cheap enough and reliable enough for a voyaging boat- for now, I think they're a bit too pricey and a bit too hard to fix when compared to conventional breaker panels with individual +/- wires.

Lookup Empirbus Matt. There are similar systems of course.
Not difficult to have a few spare parts on board. The software is easy to manage and on board anyway.

CAN bus btw. is proven for 25 years now, and these systems all are based on CAN architecture. But YOU know that.

Regards
Richard

[marshmat]

Yes, the CAN bus is well understood and, if properly implemented, quite reliable. That doesn't say anything about the devices to which the communication bus is connected, though.

I am more concerned about the difficulties involved in troubleshooting a system that is essentially all "black box" components. If you're willing to carry a couple of spares of every piece in the system, and troubleshoot by replacing expensive modules one at a time, then by all means go for it. Distributed power buses do have some appealing advantages on a very systems-intense boat. But they are expensive, proprietary, and introduce new failure modes that may not be easy to troubleshoot.

Enough drift, though. We're talking equipment, sonar has been mentioned a couple of times- any thoughts on that, Richard?

Originally Posted by marshmat

Yes, the CAN bus is well understood and, if properly implemented, quite reliable. That doesn't say anything about the devices to which the communication bus is connected, though.

I am more concerned about the difficulties involved in troubleshooting a system that is essentially all "black box" components. If you're willing to carry a couple of spares of every piece in the system, and troubleshoot by replacing expensive modules one at a time, then by all means go for it. Distributed power buses do have some appealing advantages on a very systems-intense boat. But they are expensive, proprietary, and introduce new failure modes that may not be easy to troubleshoot.

Enough drift, though. We're talking equipment, sonar has been mentioned a couple of times- any thoughts on that, Richard?

The Empir bus system has two major components which should have a spare one on board, not a real task.

Yes the sonar is a very helpful instrument, especially for a passagemaker in doubtful waters.

Regards
Richard

[dskira]

This is not my domain
A radar
A compass
A sextant
A chart table full size
Binoculars
A depth sounder
A Walker knots measurement (or perhaps something more modern)

For the rest inside, heating by radiator feed by gravity, no fridge, no air con.
A good fireplace, a large diesel stove with large oven, a smaller wood stove for pastry (smell so good), an incinerator, and a large full headroom food pantry in the bilge
A large linen storage well heated and ventilated.
I will use the hotel power directly from the generator for the washing machine of large size and dryer.

As I said system is not my domain, sorry for thee lake of real help there.

Daniel

[mydauphin]

Funny thing all this equipment- 20 years ago I spent a long time almost lost in the Carribean. We didn't have GPS's, radar, chart-plotters. Dead reckoning, charts, a compass, binoculars, luck and asking the occasional boater or ship was the main form of navigation. Had a lot of fun - only added a couple of hours per trip looking for some tiny island. Usually got it right within like 10 miles.

Not saying not to have all the toys just that all that stuff should work with more traditional information sources like color of water,etc..

[larry larisky]

first a radar, then a radar and again a radar.
this thing is a life saver.
a lot of light for the deck ready to be turned on and off. one or two floods on the mast, ready to be used
a darker as possible bridge, extending the full width of the ship.
no sofa on bridge.
all instrument in front, and none airplane style
wipers activated from the top, parallel to the port, and in all ports.
heated ports
side port on the bridge, opening by sliding completely down, but closed with dogs when up.