Perfect Cruising boat?

As Eric S says, surely there is no such thing as a "perfect" cruiser - surely it varies according to the style of cruising you do, the way you like it, the crew you have, their own personal preference re style of cruising (lots of luxuries or the simple life, their taste in boats), the time they have to cruise, the place they are cruising, their own taste in sail trimming, boat motion, boat handling, etc?

Cruising grounds obviously matter, don't they? From Australia, it's hard to have downwind as "the only way to go" unless you really like going the long way around to many destinations. For example, in doing three passages between Sydney and New Caledonia at the "right" time of year, I've had about three days in the forecast trades. Other times we've left with a good forecast and found ourselves punching upwind. So people I know (I'm no expert on this I admit) find themselves selling their long-keel ketches for fin keelers, so they could get from Australia to Tahiti etc in a reasonable trip.

Steel is cool in some ways, but there are people who have spent years cruising the world to places like Alaska, or doing singlehanded non-stop circumnavigations, who have never hit a container, rock or another boat with much force. Others say they don't want to hit anything in a boat that could sink, so they go for a cat or an alloy moderate-displacement masthead centreboarder with foam flotation.

Can you really "rest a case" re bilgeboards on what one designer (is Brewer the doyen of designers in the US? What about Rhodes, Stephens, Perry...it's personal preference again isn't it) believes "might be a pleasant surprise"? He makes it obvious that he hasn't actually seen such a boat, so how can that be proof of its efficacy?

Actually, a block called (IIRC) "Wright" (not Alan Wright) produced some similar boats here, like the 36' (ish) Warlock, in the '80s. They had high-ish aspect bilge keels, alloy construction IIRC, long waterlines, medium bilge, full stern for the day. I probably have an article somewhere in my collection of old "Cruising Skipper" mags.

Warlock wasn't a rocketship around a short course (we used to push her on a 20'er, a copy of a Santana 20 on a VERY tight beer-can course) but of course that's no proof that it was a bad concept or anything. She certainly showed none of the (IIRC) claimed performance advantages, but didn't seem to be a bad boat and obviously would have been good at times.

So doesn't it all get down to personal preferences? I have met people who have been happily sailing a 1979 lightweight (about 6,500 kg) fractional rig IOR 2 tonner (the old Admiral's Cupper Accanito), complete with flush deck and runner-dependent rig, for about a decade around the Pacific with no problems. I met them outside a harbour, in a place the local don't normally anchor, so they didn't just cruise from marina to marina. They regarded it as the perfect cruiser - for them.

[Wynand N]

Thankx Yago

Now you really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

The BOUTEFEU is realy radical and represents what I believe in -regarding twin keels. If that boat doesnt go well, then I am Elvis Presley.

The Wave and Friction Drag graph says it all.
By looking at the keel(s) pictures, I cannot see how you can get the same ballast at the same draft without increasing wetted surface areas and induced drag with a single fin.

I believe the Frenchies were always and still are leaders in yacht design - always different, modern and at times radical. Even more so with their racing designs. You can always spot the frog.

Unfortunately I cannot speak any French except for one word "champagne" thus I could not followed the text. META is well known for steel/aluminium built boat and i wonder if this hull is plastic or aluminium?

As I am a bit more conservative, I would go for slightly wider keels with a little less aspect ratio just to be sure it got enough inherent strenght to carry those bulbs.

Fair winds

Wynand

[yago]

in terms of appendices for pure performance I guess that the current open 60s as racing now in the vendee globe (http://www.vendeeglobe.org/, with great daily vido clips.. first thing I do every morning in the office ) are close to perfect:
central hinged (and/or pivoting, canting ,variable angle of attac and what you want..) keels plus additional lateral daggers.

There the keel is reduced to it's pure weight carrying function,very thin profiles, and positioned for maximum ballast effect, with the hydrodynamic requirements focused on the daggerboards that are at optimum angle for expected heel.

Check out the videos presenting the boats on http://vendee-globe.vendee.fr/ where you can on some images see the keel&ballast almost beside the hull...

Obviously prohibitive for cruising, but if you see the way they are beating their boats in conditions that we would never take a cruisng hull to, there is no doubt for me that these boats are the best ocean crossing saling machines around.

Makes you think about what is considered "seaworthy".... sure, like all racing machines they are designed on the edge - but that edge is very far away from what a cruiser would ever ask for. For driving to the office a Formula 1 car is certainly the safest thing you could find, in terms of tracking, passive impact, breaks etc - even if they break an awful lot of them in races. Of course, if you want to take your girlfriend along, she would need to be very small and slim to fit on your lap

Bilgekeels: I have had some smaller bilgekeel boats, and my only objection is that they are a pain to get off if you run aground, on hard sand and a falling tide it's VERY narrow, if there is any sticky mud it's even worse.
Gerd

[interlude]

Hi Wynand
Sounds similar to my designing-building-project which I have just happily launched! You have the advantage of ddesign and boatbuilding experience and the ability to work with steel - the recognised best cruiser material. I went through the same thoughts of bilge keeler for the advantages of beaching etc, and a wing keel for shallow draught efficiency, but ended up with a longish shallow wing keel - simpler and safer. Moved away from broad transom for more traditional and more flexible usage and thus back to single rudder. However, the interior was the most difficult to come up with. I wanted to get away from that stilted, he-man traditional yacht interior to a more homely live-aboard friendly style. After 8 years of live aboard experience I felt that I knew what I wanted. Perhaps some of my stuff could help you - see http://yachtinterlude.netfirms.com for more info

[OrionsSword]

[http://vendee-globe.vendee.fr/

Well since the poor gentleman has just said that he doesn't understand french then at least send him to the english site at http://www.vendeeglobe.org/uk/
I would also like to take issue with the statement that these boats are on par with driving a F1 car to work and that they are some of the safest sailing apperatus to take across the ocean yes they are altogether designed right on the edge and therfor (sp?) are not exactly safe for any person not absolutly sure of what there doing and i personnaly would rather subject a heavily built cruiser to these conditions than one of these boats (i say this and i would love just the chance to sail one for even an afternoon)

As for the suggestion that many of there designs are wonderfully applicably to cruising boats you hace pointed out to me many things that i never noticed before and i agree completly

Orion

[K4s]

Seems to me that 90% of sailing time is upwind so what ever the boat is in my book it has to be able to go to windward reasonably quick and be able to point high.Design the rest of the boat around this basic concept and you cant be far away from the answer.
K4s

[FAST FRED]

"Seems to me that 90% of sailing time is upwind "

"Ocean Passages for The World" is the text for going someplace with OUT beating your brains out.

Routes and seasons are dealt with many charts.

A few folks have done enough planning (and been lucky) to go around with 35K of wind the max seen , and almost NO beating!

Windward ability is great for the "Lee Shore" emergency scenerio ,
but in cruising most folks stay anchored above 40K of breeze or power .



FAST FRED

Fred, while I'm no expert on routeing, I do know many, many people from here (Aust/NZ) who say that in our area, you can't really go downwind all the time. I've been in the SE trades area between New Caledonia and Sydney (at the "right" time of year according to OPOTW) and had about 3 days of trades in about 25 days of sailing. Nor is there any other destination, really, to change your course to.

There was an interesting lesson in the 2000 Sydney-Hobart. A bunch of Volvo crews came out to use it as a practise. All 5 of the Volvo boats went out to sea in the S-SW change, expecting the breeze to switch SE as forecast.

In contrast, the local boats stayed inshore and did much better, because the SE shift just never came.

Sure, that was a race. But the lesson was clear. The Volvo crews, with full-time navigators and weather routers and meteorologists and all the gizmos available, ALL got it wrong. The forecasts didn't work.

Isn't it the case that some parts of the world have nice predictable weather, some have mild conditions, some have lots of weather stations - but others have none of the above, so you need to be able to get through whatever you get?

Similarly, coastal sailing around here is often upwind. The wind often comes in at about 45 degrees (according to Admiralty Pilot) to the coast, so if you have a boat that points well you can often slide along the coast with long making legs. If you have a boat that points 10 degrees lower, it becomes a real struggle of sagging into the coast, tacking out, sagging, tacking out. You can't just drive well out heading north or you'll hit the strong southbound current.

The SE trades along the Queensland coast can be very consistent, so if you are a little bit late heading south (to avoid cyclone season) either you have to be able to get places fast in the brief periods when the trades drop off, or you have to enjoy motoring 1000 miles, or you have to be able to go upwind.

Sure, in an ideal world you'd go a few weeks earlier, before the trades hit. But things like work contracts you have to complete to re-fill the cruising kitty don't always fit the wind patterns laid down by Ocean Routes.

[K4s]

Hey Fast,
May have been a bit of a genralisation at 90% but I reakon if you can make the upwind stuff enjoyable its all good,if you cant then your cruising time and enjoyment of it is limited.Kinda detracts from the whole experience IMO.
Only my experience but I have had some magic downwind sailing because I could easily and efficiently get to windward when others have stayed at anchor for the day.I guess it is all in the way you want to sail/cruise.
Reaching and running(especially in a planing hull)is the best sailing you can get,if you are to weather.If not getting there can be a right royal pain in the a--e so efficiency upwind becomes all important in my book.
Im not always right in general terms but I sure enjoy my sailing.
Hopefully not labouring the point;One cruise to fiji from nz in a Davidson 45 was 8 days of beautiful reaching that was only possible due to being able to get upwind fast enough to latch onto the weather system,others in the fleet who couldnt had a miserable trip all the way due to missing this.
Be good on the wind and double your sailing pleasure.
K4s

[Guillermo]

Hey, Winand!
How're your plans to build your retirement boat going on?
I agree quite a lot with your definition of a 'perfect' cruising boat, although I agree with other posters this is only a personal choice. I'd sign up your first post...
You just have to add a nice engine around 70 HP, as to consider her a proper motorsailer, and that's it....Welcome to the club!

[Wellydeckhand]

Yes, maybe can educate me on the choose of bilge keel........ for safty reason

[Raggi_Thor]

The only reason I can see for having two keels is stability when you dry out.
Keels cost money or work, and they add some drag.
A single keel weith a lead bulb is probaly the easiest and cheapest to make and it's more efficient and have a lower cg than twin keels.

[Vega]

.

Originally Posted by Wynand N

Hi everybody

I came across the following:

Quote
“A bilge keelboat with a pair of moderately high aspect ratio fins might be a pleasant suprise as to performance and have some solid advantages for the serious cruising sailor. To my knowledge, no one has ever produced such a boat.”


Wynand

I guess it is an old book, or Brewer doesn’t know about French “biquilles”.

Actually they have a production cruiser that, by its performances, could enter by its own right in the category of cruiser races.

The boat comes standard with twin keels but can have an option of a single keel.
They know how the boat behaves in twin and single keel configuration and they strongly recommend the twin keel. There is very little difference regarding performances, and the twin keel has a lot of advantages to cruisers. Almost all clients go for the twin keel.

http://www.rm-yachts.com/detail_gamme.cfm?id_gamme=7

But I guess that you are not interested in cruiser racers and that what is going to interest you is the “Mercator”. That’s what I could find, unfortunately all in French, but with lots of pictures. Tell me if I am right.

http://www.webzagone.fr/mercator/lppdn.html
http://www.webzagone.fr/mercator/chantier.html
http://www.sailingnow.com/mag/boats/...t/M40/M40.html

http://www.hisse-et-oh.com/articles/...HPSESSID=4e5c8

For me there is only thing that beats twin keels for cruising and that is a retractable keel. Not only can you enter a lot of places that with a keel boat are out of your reach, but also, in case of bad weather (hurricanes and so), you can go for shelter, deep up the rivers in the middle of the mangroves.

[Wellydeckhand]

Twin keel for easy beach repair, ..... of course with extra drag..... meaning almost nothing in the journey with sail ? It wouldnt cause an extra day journey yes?

As for emergency repair can do underwater welding by using Brocco.\\

WDH

P.S. to beach emergency doesnt need twin keel unless for hull inspection

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Wellydeckhand

Twin keel ...of course with extra drag..... meaning almost nothing in the journey with sail ?

If you think that this is not a fast sailing boat.....think again