Pedal Powered Boats

[I57]

Went out in rougher conditions with the forward fitted outriggers and boat performed well. Going downwind at 45 deg to the waves the boat seemed to handle better as the outriggers were digging into the waves and kept the boat stable. Going into the wind still felt ok except every time a larger wave hit it created a huge spray of water. As it was a temporary setup to see how the forward outriggers worked I had not got around to reinforcing the supports. As a result after a rest I went out again and had only gone about 100 metres when the supports snapped off resulting in a very quick dunking in the water. Fortunatley its summer here and the day was warm as well as the water was warm, dragged the various pieces back to shore and checked nothing was missing. Have now reverted to outriggers at midships and reinforced the supports.
Have now gone back to a rudder, the directional prop worked but needed a large turning circle. Gone about as far as I can with this boat, although I have said that before. The latest change was the 10th since I built it and the weight has been going up ever since. Going to build a new boat this year, Ricks V15-5m and fit it with the involute gearbox and inline shaft.

[spidennis]

SpinFin:
I've found very little info on this:

http://microship.com/bobstuart/lambordinghy.html

http://microship.com/bobstuart/spinfin.html

It looks like a nice sleek unit and I'm looking for options in the prop variety rather than going with the mirage drive.

Anyone got any info on this? I got an email out to the guy but it's an older page so we'll see what happens.

[I57]

Spidennis
What I've read and heard he no longer makes these units, could be wrong and you may pick one up somewhere, ebay?
I have made one of these twisted chain drives but have never used it as I haven't found a way to keep the water out of the casing. Also the one I made was bulky and heavy, need to get some very small gears for the lower part that attaches to the prop. Other option is to go with one of Rick's flexible drive shafts, minimal amont of drag in the water.

Ian

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by I57

Spidennis
What I've read and heard he no longer makes these units, could be wrong and you may pick one up somewhere, ebay?
I have made one of these twisted chain drives but have never used it as I haven't found a way to keep the water out of the casing. Also the one I made was bulky and heavy, need to get some very small gears for the lower part that attaches to the prop. Other option is to go with one of Rick's flexible drive shafts, minimal amont of drag in the water.

Ian

I got a reply back! but they say they're not in production, bummer. He said he'd cc his email to me to the other partner/helper that has the molds, so who knows?

The reason I liked this was because I could stick it off the main tramp area or move it as needed. I got a special requirement and it's a bit different, I'm building a folding beach cat where the hulls end up sitting side by side with only a 3' beam when folded. This is for getting up and thru narrow sections of river and streams, think Everglades Challenge. My hulls are gonna sit about 2' high, think prindle 16 hulls and the prop drive has to work in both the full expanded sailing position and also in the narrow folded tight water position.

from what I heard Rick's drive shaft doesn't last all that long? and I'd have to find a way of mounting it to fit both hull configurations. It also needs to be pulled up and out of the way, beach landings, skinny water, seaweed, etc.

[MLampi]

The WaveWalker folks, if they are still around, make a similar drive unit, though perhaps a bit more robust than the SpinFin.

A few years ago they weren't interested in selling them separate from their boats, but who knows? Maybe now they will sell them.

Michael

[portacruise]

Hi, SPI:

Rick's latest, folding outriggers boat addresses some of your pull up, weed and narrow/skinny water issues with the short shaft which is within a hand's reach:

http://www.rickwill.bigpondhosting.com/V15_58.htm

Maybe a quick release hex socket could used to pull out the shaft. Somewhere in his postings on this list he estimated shaft life to be considerable, is my recollection....

Porta

Originally Posted by spidennis

I got a reply back! but they say they're not in production, bummer. He said he'd cc his email to me to the other partner/helper that has the molds, so who knows?

The reason I liked this was because I could stick it off the main tramp area or move it as needed. I got a special requirement and it's a bit different, I'm building a folding beach cat where the hulls end up sitting side by side with only a 3' beam when folded. This is for getting up and thru narrow sections of river and streams, think Everglades Challenge. My hulls are gonna sit about 2' high, think prindle 16 hulls and the prop drive has to work in both the full expanded sailing position and also in the narrow folded tight water position.

from what I heard Rick's drive shaft doesn't last all that long? and I'd have to find a way of mounting it to fit both hull configurations. It also needs to be pulled up and out of the way, beach landings, skinny water, seaweed, etc.

[I57]

Spidennis
The flexible shaft can be either spring steel 8mm dia or machinable aluminium 10mm dia, both work ok. Your other issue is to get a suitable gearbox, I use a 1:3 ratio involute gearbox which keeps things simple. Otherwise a bike crank and chain connected to a 90 deg gearbox of 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. The setup on my proa allows me to pull the shaft clear of trhe water for beaching and in shallow water. Shaft life depends on how tight the curve is, the bigger the radius the longer the shaft life. If you trawl back through this forum there is quite a lot of info on flexible shafts.

Ian

[spidennis]

Ok guys, I'm having a tough time seeing just where and how this is gonna mount up on my folding cat. In the unfolded position, If the peddles went off the front cross bar then the shaft could be nice and long to keep the stresses down. In the folded position then the foot crank might get in the way and the shaft will get sandwiched between the hulls leaving the prop where?

Or should I mount it over the side of the boat? Not between the hulls? As it still has to work in the folded position.

Plus it has to get out of the way for a 40 mile portage and such.

see this short youtube of my first model showing the folding.

[spidennis]

Here is the spinfin mounted on the microship, this is a side mounting. Can either this type or Rick's "flying shaft" (if I can use that to describe it) be side mounted on my folding cat? or should I somehow get the prop off the back somehow, back by the rudders? but then the peddles and shaft?

[portacruise]

SPI:

What is the advantage of the spinfin, since you can remove the flex shaft and maybe make a mobile mount for the cranks/gearbox? It does have to be stored out of water, clamped fore or aft of the platform, so it doesn't interfere with folding. Better with your model, would be a permanent mounting position at the rear cross, with the shaft running unsupported behind. But you would have to face backward while pedaling, using mirrors like skullers which may not be acceptable for your situation. You could also run the shaft off the side like with the spinfin. Maybe use some universal joints on the ends and a telescoping hex drive to connect the cranks and remote gearbox, but this is probably too complex.

That folding arrangement is pretty cool, but how many time would you use it on your race... Won't everything have to stay packed on the center section, or do you repack supplies each time?

Hope this helps.

Porta

Originally Posted by spidennis

Here is the spinfin mounted on the microship, this is a side mounting. Can either this type or Rick's "flying shaft" (if I can use that to describe it) be side mounted on my folding cat? or should I somehow get the prop off the back somehow, back by the rudders? but then the peddles and shaft?

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by portacruise

SPI:
That folding arrangement is pretty cool, but how many time would you use it on your race... Won't everything have to stay packed on the center section, or do you repack supplies each time?

Porta

Porta,
In these "Challenges" there are numerous "Filters" to limit the size of the boats, they could be pilings, bridges, narrow waterways, etc, so folding and demounting the mast must be fairly quick. Then of course on the 40 mile portage it will be folded. There's enough times that a quick method of doing this is important, not just merely taking something apart.

As for gear? that all is gonna get stowed in the hulls with hatches from bow to stern. In the folded position I won't be able to get to some of the hatches. My "tent" will also be an enclosed fold up cockpit for bad weather, with the center part of the cockpit being a hard deck to which the folding hardware/mount is a part of.

I've studied the reasons for failed and aborted trips and watertribe DNFs and getting your gear soaked or lost is a major concern so I wanted to eliminate any chance of that happening. In my sea kayaking and canoe portaging trips I've learned a lot of what does work for me and I believe in double or triple water proof protection, and that means even if I have to portage all my gear on my head for 3 miles! ... and trust me every ounce I feel when doing that!

Presently I got a prindle 16 to use as my proof of concept boat, later I might go to an F16 class of hull or maybe A class, still looking for designs/plans for either. I'm leaning towards the shorter F16 class at 16' rather that 18' for the A class. 18 is better for sailing, 16 is better for the massive portage and I think that is gonna rule.

but back to the peddle prop drive, yeah I thought of sitting backwards and that wouldn't be my first choice. I need to shape my model#2 a bit and play around with that some. It is a scale model 1" to 1' to help give me scope. It also has better details on the folding operation to see just how the geometries work. I will be using a bike to tow the boat on the 40 mile portage and I've been trying to think about how I can take about the bike to use in the prop drive but then to bolt it back together again for bike operation. A recumbent bike would be best for the prop drive but I hadn't tested that style of bike in the portage mode, not yet anyway.

I didn't really want to get into all these other features but they all inter relate. It really is a system and not just separate components.

other modes of non sailing mode would be rowing with oars or to scull off the back, I'll try and use them all. They all have pros/cons, just like the peddle prop. btw, wt trend seems to be the mirage drive.


http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm

[spidennis]

this was posted Jan 14th 2012


and from what I gather this is Rick filming?
I caught a glimpse of his orange v15 5.8
this is posted jan 21st a few days later

[portacruise]

SPI:

There's a lot on google/utube on possible drives. The friction drives off bike tires are worthless especially when wet, but there was a commercial system out of Oz sometime back that took the pedal chain directly to the prop gear box. Also maybe a 2 blade air prop bike conversion might be the way to go- easier to store, lighter/no weeds/shallow water issues. There are some bikes that store compactly, Google bike Friday. Some misc. clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijZ2QXA-5DA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymiQb...eature=related

That's a lot of weight to portage 40 miles!

Porta

Originally Posted by spidennis

Porta,
In these "Challenges" there are numerous "Filters" to limit the size of the boats, they could be pilings, bridges, narrow waterways, etc, so folding and demounting the mast must be fairly quick. Then of course on the 40 mile portage it will be folded. There's enough times that a quick method of doing this is important, not just merely taking something apart.

As for gear? that all is gonna get stowed in the hulls with hatches from bow to stern. In the folded position I won't be able to get to some of the hatches. My "tent" will also be an enclosed fold up cockpit for bad weather, with the center part of the cockpit being a hard deck to which the folding hardware/mount is a part of.

I've studied the reasons for failed and aborted trips and watertribe DNFs and getting your gear soaked or lost is a major concern so I wanted to eliminate any chance of that happening. In my sea kayaking and canoe portaging trips I've learned a lot of what does work for me and I believe in double or triple water proof protection, and that means even if I have to portage all my gear on my head for 3 miles! ... and trust me every ounce I feel when doing that!

Presently I got a prindle 16 to use as my proof of concept boat, later I might go to an F16 class of hull or maybe A class, still looking for designs/plans for either. I'm leaning towards the shorter F16 class at 16' rather that 18' for the A class. 18 is better for sailing, 16 is better for the massive portage and I think that is gonna rule.

but back to the peddle prop drive, yeah I thought of sitting backwards and that wouldn't be my first choice. I need to shape my model#2 a bit and play around with that some. It is a scale model 1" to 1' to help give me scope. It also has better details on the folding operation to see just how the geometries work. I will be using a bike to tow the boat on the 40 mile portage and I've been trying to think about how I can take about the bike to use in the prop drive but then to bolt it back together again for bike operation. A recumbent bike would be best for the prop drive but I hadn't tested that style of bike in the portage mode, not yet anyway.

I didn't really want to get into all these other features but they all inter relate. It really is a system and not just separate components.

other modes of non sailing mode would be rowing with oars or to scull off the back, I'll try and use them all. They all have pros/cons, just like the peddle prop. btw, wt trend seems to be the mirage drive.


http://www.duckworksbbs.com/gear/scullmatix/index.htm

[Tiny Turnip]

Spidennis: I use a pair of reconditioned seacycle drives on my boat. I'll happily talk through what I see as the pros and cons of these units, if that's of help.
It may be worth a browse of the canoe sailing forums for thoughts on portage.

Adrian

[spidennis]

Adrian,
Please! I'd love to hear your thoughts about your boat and it's drive system. I've been thru the whole thread as it progressed but will be going back thru it again to refresh my brain. It was YOUR boat that inspired me to this type of drive setup as I thought it could adapt to my varied requirement the best.

When the boat is deployed to the full open position almost any system could fit and operate, it's the folded position I think that is causing me problems with mounting and operation.

and I only made reference to the canoe trips for the water proofing, I don't ever plan to use a peddle prop drive, or sail or anything other than a paddle and presently use double blades with this boat but will try out a single this summer. These trips are a whole'nother animal! and I get great satisfaction out of this physical feat of varied travel.


pics always help to visualize: