Pedal Powered Boats

[Rnykster]

Originally Posted by spidennis

If I had to wait for my local stores to have anything I'd want I'd just be without. Everything I have to hunt for, build and modify somehow. It would be great if what I wanted was off the shelf locally, but that's just not the part of the world I live in. The world is still evolving and not everything is either been built or in it's time.

Well, I'd even accept traveling to something like the East Coast Kayak Festival to test out an available pedal boat. Last time I was there, the only pedal boat available was, no surprise, Hobie. If people out there have designs better than Hobie, why on earth would they not want to become independently rich by getting a patent, producing, marketing and mass selling their better product? Big kayak festivals is where major kayak marketing goes on. I've never heard of a Pedal Boat Festival where all the major pedal boat manufacturers and designers showcase their products and allow consumer to test their product.

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by Rnykster

Well, I'd even accept traveling to something like the East Coast Kayak Festival to test out an available pedal boat. Last time I was there, the only pedal boat available was, no surprise, Hobie. If people out there have designs better than Hobie, why on earth would they not want to become independently rich by getting a patent, producing, marketing and mass selling their better product? Big kayak festivals is where major kayak marketing goes on. I've never heard of a Pedal Boat Festival where all the major pedal boat manufacturers and designers showcase their products and allow consumer to test their product.

Independently rich? I have a company and a product that does like no other and I'm not rich. Patent? ever try that? a company? ever try that? it's not at all that simple. I wish it was ....... and with this economy my product is struggling to stay alive till better times come back. I'm still hoping to pay the mortgage right now ....... Make a living with a new start up company in the recreation market? no thanks!

[Rnykster]

Originally Posted by portacruise

CHECK OUT THIS WEBSITE: http://www.prophish.com/ If you want speed and room for gear, the glaskipper has gone to South America from U.S. ... Your are lucky that you have found something off the rack that fits your needs! Good for you, nothing is wrong with that, ENJOY, and ignore the racing talk as I do, unless it can help me improve something. Porta

I checked out that website for the glaskipper and looked at the pedal boat and didn't see a single hatch. Doesn't look like much room for gear. With a weight of 155 pounds, you'd have to have a boat ramp to launch the thing. Thanks - I guess there is much to be thankful for as I do enjoy my pedal boat.

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by Rnykster

I checked out that website for the glaskipper and looked at the pedal boat and didn't see a single hatch. Doesn't look like much room for gear. With a weight of 155 pounds, you'd have to have a boat ramp to launch the thing. Thanks - I guess there is much to be thankful for as I do enjoy my pedal boat.

did you see jose's adventure? he was able to pack away some gear!
http://www.prophish.com/nyrio.html

so it sounds like you have/found the perfect boat for you. that's better than the rest of us here, we're all still tinkering away ......

[Jeremy Harris]

Originally Posted by Rnykster

Jeremy - if that was the case, then why, in a recent race, would a 27.5 inch wide plastic Hobie pedal boat beat the majority of paddlers in much narrower 21 to 25 inch wide fiberglass kayaks? It almost beat a tandem team in a fast 20 inch wide fiberglass kayak 21 feet long. The Hobie Mirage drive system is more efficient than the paddle system because it utilizes a more powerful muscle group. If in comparable boats, Hobie would always be faster than a paddler. I can't paddle my Hobie kayak as fast as I can pedal it.

What few propeller boats that are available in this area (Native Watercraft), don't stand a chance against a Hobie. When better propeller boats are manufactured and distributed, I'll try one. Until then, Hobie pedal boats are the winner.

Rick suggested that I should try the Cadence. I'm aware of Michael's use of the Cadence in many races and have asked Michael several times in the past, to hook me up with a Cadence. No dice. I've basically got to travel 3000 miles to try one. Forget that! Plus, there is a design flaw with the Cadence - the propeller system can't be raised to get through shallow areas which are common around here. Maybe that is why the Cadence company is for sale - design flaws and no distributors equals no sales.

I'm all for the fast pedal boat of any type propulsion. If there are ever any pedal boats made that are FASTER than the Hobie, that are just as stable, that I can throw gear in for a multi-day trip, that can handle open water paddles (3-6 foot seas), and can be sailed, please let me know.

An interesting view, but what exactly is the relevance of the beam comparison?

Displacement hull speed is primarily dictated by two factors, waterline length and wetted area. Beam is only a secondary consideration, a narrow beam is often just an artefact of minimising wetted area (for reduced viscous drag) whilst maximising waterline length (for increased speed before the onset of significant wave-making drag).

The muscle group argument is, I'm afraid, also wholly incorrect. Under endurance conditions the bodies continuous power output is aerobically limited, not muscle limited. In essence, the limit is the ability of an athlete's ability to maintain a supply of adequately oxygenated blood to the muscles, not the absolute, burst power capability of any particular muscle group.

These sort of beliefs, based on flawed assumptions, are just the reason that I thought up the experiment above. Without an objective test we are unable to do more than hypothesise, albeit with some hard data points to guide our thinking.

Jeremy

[portacruise]

Originally Posted by spidennis

Independently rich? I have a company and a product that does like no other and I'm not rich. Patent? ever try that? a company? ever try that? it's not at all that simple. I wish it was ....... and with this economy my product is struggling to stay alive till better times come back. I'm still hoping to pay the mortgage right now ....... Make a living with a new start up company in the recreation market? no thanks!

Yes, some of this is also on prophish page under custom services "our story":
http://www.prophish.com/pedalmachine.html They are surviving on their machine shop business with probably only write offs for their boats.

They could probably improve their props ( why 3 bladed?) and lower costs if they adopted some form of Rick's method for making props. OTOH it takes a rugged construction for Jose to have reached Central America from NY.

Seems like a good place to get custom machine work for those that don't have the talent, patience, or capital invested in machine shop equipment.....

Porta

[portacruise]

Originally Posted by spidennis

Portacruise,
did I somehow miss pics of your craft?
it sounds very interesting, refresh my memory?
thanks,
spidennis

Dennis only have a few pics and home movies that are in a family vacation album. Hundreds have photographed me in action, so I am surprised nothing has been posted to the web. I am planning to dub over some commentary in the family stuff and post to u tube someday when I have time, after I retire. I often used to fly into HRL and drive down to work the sheltered Coast Guard station area and sometimes, the convention center areas with my 'toon over a decade ago at SPI. Left the Valley 1969 and don't do salt water anymore. Here's something to give you an idea of what the body of the most recent boat looks like: http://www.4seasonsfly.com/11939/234...y-Trekker.html I tried small paddlewheels and a few other approaches which were too heavy for my uses. I finally worked out a tiny electric drive in about '92, which evolved to the flex shaft electric in early '95, and is about all I use now on rivers...

Porta

[Rnykster]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Harris

An interesting view, but what exactly is the relevance of the beam comparison?

Displacement hull speed is primarily dictated by two factors, waterline length and wetted area. Beam is only a secondary consideration, a narrow beam is often just an artefact of minimising wetted area (for reduced viscous drag) whilst maximising waterline length (for increased speed before the onset of significant wave-making drag).

The muscle group argument is, I'm afraid, also wholly incorrect. Under endurance conditions the bodies continuous power output is aerobically limited, not muscle limited. In essence, the limit is the ability of an athlete's ability to maintain a supply of adequately oxygenated blood to the muscles, not the absolute, burst power capability of any particular muscle group.

These sort of beliefs, based on flawed assumptions, are just the reason that I thought up the experiment above. Without an objective test we are unable to do more than hypothesise, albeit with some hard data points to guide our thinking. Jeremy

The significance of the beam comparison is that a wider boat of similar length usually has more surface contact (wetted area). My wide Hobie was beating boats of similar length that were significantly narrower. If beam has no relevance in boat design, then why are racing kayaks continually getting narrower and narrower to the point that initial stability is absolutely terrible? Sorry about being incorrect with this thought that the narrower the boat, the faster it is, as I base that on mere observation and experience instead of scientific formulas.

I don't need any tests to conjure up a theory that legs are more powerful than arms. Reality (for me) yields that using the same level of exertion (perceived), I can pedal my Hobie Mirage Drive kayak on average about 1 mph faster than I can paddle it and that is based on plenty of experience, not hearsay. Sorry that my body seems to fall outside the realm of what you say is correct about muscle groups.

Everything I say seems to be incorrect in this forum. Well, you folks enjoy your pedal boat experimentation to gain a few hundredths of a mile per hour in speed to make up for what you lack in physical power so you can feel superior on the water in terms of speed and design compared to other pedal boats. Your quest for absolute maximum speed does little to promote the sport of pedal boat racing except in the little known boat division of novelty designs.

I have to say thanks to Greg Ketterman at Hobie for designing the "poor performing" Mirage Drive. Because of Hobie, pedal boats are not a novelty product any more and have gone into mainstream America. I see I'm wasting my time in this forum. Bye. Moderator - delete my account. Thanks.

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by portacruise

Dennis only have a few pics and home movies that are in a family vacation album. Hundreds have photographed me in action, so I am surprised nothing has been posted to the web. I am planning to dub over some commentary in the family stuff and post to u tube someday when I have time, after I retire. I often used to fly into HRL and drive down to work the sheltered Coast Guard station area and sometimes, the convention center areas with my 'toon over a decade ago at SPI. Left the Valley 1969 and don't do salt water anymore. Here's something to give you an idea of what the body of the most recent boat looks like: http://www.4seasonsfly.com/11939/234...y-Trekker.html I tried small paddlewheels and a few other approaches which were too heavy for my uses. I finally worked out a tiny electric drive in about '92, which evolved to the flex shaft electric in early '95, and is about all I use now on rivers...

Porta

the place has really changed, lots more buildings, less view, more people, more rules and laws enforced, etc. , the water is pretty much the same but it's still the nicest beach in texas. I almost went and did a kayak trip down the colorado river this week, but am holding out to do my entire coast of texas trip just as soon as I think the weather is gonna be nice for a couple of weeks. I'll be able to recon the whole coast for when I get my next boat together and do some serious testing for the next 1200 mile Ultimate Florida Challenge (ufc). I had a couple of other races in which I thought that maybe a prop drive would work but with further research discovered that what i had in mind would not work out so good. The ufc on the other hand, now there is a project where the pieces are coming together! Lots of different ideas are being put together to form up one interesting craft. I can't wait to do some water testing! but it'll take me awhile to get to a completed boat but that's ok, i got till 2014 til the next ufc.

[Jeremy Harris]

Originally Posted by Rnykster

The significance of the beam comparison is that a wider boat of similar length usually has more surface contact (wetted area). My wide Hobie was beating boats of similar length that were significantly narrower. If beam has no relevance in boat design, then why are racing kayaks continually getting narrower and narrower to the point that initial stability is absolutely terrible? Sorry about being incorrect with this thought that the narrower the boat, the faster it is, as I base that on mere observation and experience instead of scientific formulas.

I don't need any tests to conjure up a theory that legs are more powerful than arms. Reality (for me) yields that using the same level of exertion (perceived), I can pedal my Hobie Mirage Drive kayak on average about 1 mph faster than I can paddle it and that is based on plenty of experience, not hearsay. Sorry that my body seems to fall outside the realm of what you say is correct about muscle groups.

Everything I say seems to be incorrect in this forum. Well, you folks enjoy your pedal boat experimentation to gain a few hundredths of a mile per hour in speed to make up for what you lack in physical power so you can feel superior on the water in terms of speed and design compared to other pedal boats. Your quest for absolute maximum speed does little to promote the sport of pedal boat racing except in the little known boat division of novelty designs.

I have to say thanks to Greg Ketterman at Hobie for designing the "poor performing" Mirage Drive. Because of Hobie, pedal boats are not a novelty product any more and have gone into mainstream America. I see I'm wasting my time in this forum. Bye. Moderator - delete my account. Thanks.

Sorry you took this the wrong way, no offence was intended.

It's a well-documented fact that the bodies aerobic limit is what governs continuous power output, no matter what you may choose to believe. A quick review of any of the sports science studies on this topic will quickly show this to be the case.

The more muscle groups you can use the better, to some extent, as that helps cardiovascular efficiency, but favouring one muscle group over another doesn't. Certainly our leg muscles are capable of delivering greater forces than other muscles, but we aren't talking about force here, what we need is continuous power.

I have no strong feelings about the Hobie drive, as it happens. It works, it has some distinct advantages, like relative freedom from fouling and looks to have been marketed reasonably well. It's wrong to assume that sales success is related to performance, or efficiency, though. There are many, many examples where the best technical solution hasn't sold well, Betamax vs VHS, for example. Often it's the company with the best marketing and support provision that sells the most product, often irrespective of efficiency or technical quality. Look at bicycles, as another example, closer to the thread topic. The best selling bikes are often draggy, wide-tyred, pseudo "mountain bikes", more often than not fitted with energy sapping suspension of poor design. The cheap ones that sell well are horribly inefficient, when compared to a bike that has been optimised for low drag and propulsive efficiency, yet they continue to sell well.

It's been pointed out that I missed displacement in the comment above, which was unintentional, as in my head I relate displacement to wetted area. As someone with a background in aerodynamics I still struggle a bit in translating the same fluid engineering concepts into "boat speak".

Jeremy

[portacruise]

Hey, good luck with those tours! What time of year are you planning your adventure, what kind of craft are you using? Are Spring and Fall still the most tolerable times? Will you be in the semi sheltered intercoastal or out in the surf? It has to be a good size boat with backup maybe, to carry enough supplies I would think. My daughter went to UF so I explored most of the rivers like the Swannee and tributaries a couple of years ago by 'toon, some beautiful areas.
I will be up at the Eel river redwood area for Kinetic sculpture race in May this year and then working some rivers in the Sierras in July with my 'toon.

Porta

Originally Posted by spidennis

the place has really changed, lots more buildings, less view, more people, more rules and laws enforced, etc. , the water is pretty much the same but it's still the nicest beach in texas. I almost went and did a kayak trip down the colorado river this week, but am holding out to do my entire coast of texas trip just as soon as I think the weather is gonna be nice for a couple of weeks. I'll be able to recon the whole coast for when I get my next boat together and do some serious testing for the next 1200 mile Ultimate Florida Challenge (ufc). I had a couple of other races in which I thought that maybe a prop drive would work but with further research discovered that what i had in mind would not work out so good. The ufc on the other hand, now there is a project where the pieces are coming together! Lots of different ideas are being put together to form up one interesting craft. I can't wait to do some water testing! but it'll take me awhile to get to a completed boat but that's ok, i got till 2014 til the next ufc.

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by portacruise

Hey, good luck with those tours! What time of year are you planning your adventure, what kind of craft are you using? Are Spring and Fall still the most tolerable times? Will you be in the semi sheltered intercoastal or out in the surf? It has to be a good size boat with backup maybe, to carry enough supplies I would think. My daughter went to UF so I explored most of the rivers like the Swannee and tributaries a couple of years ago by 'toon, some beautiful areas.
I will be up at the Eel river redwood area for Kinetic sculpture race in May this year and then working some rivers in the Sierras in July with my 'toon.

Porta

How weird is this:
http://kayakforbackpacks.com/
Austin Davis is launching on this exact same trip starting at first light in the morning! I called him but he is wanting to do this all solo ....... but we can all follow him via spot tracker off his website. He didn't know exactly from where he's launching but I'd like to see him off. I offered him a place to stay and whatever else he might need but he seems to have it all together. I'll be there for him regardless ....... and here's the third trip/race I'll be watching via the spot tracker! we are expecting yet another front to come in, so austin's departure won't be at a perfect time. I was wanting to wait a bit so I'd not have to deal with any north winds. I plan on doing a combo of bays, ICW and offshore, depending on conditions at that time. I know I'll want to be offshore from High Island, just past Galveston to Sabine Pass which is the finish. The ICW is just a bit too inland there and the finish I want on the coast, but the weather is what will determine what I'll do!

anyway, Good Luck Austin, and Happy Trails!
this is his second trip doing this btw .....

Here I am at the mouth of the Rio Grande River, on the US/mexico border. That lighthouse tower is in mexico. This is a 17'x22.5 plastic Perception Shadow Kayak. It can hold 7 gallons of water and 2 weeks worth of food, I will be unsupported the entire way. The next time I do this trip it will be with my new wacky catamaran sailing craft with a prop peddle drive!

[portacruise]

[quote=spidennis;353758]How weird is this:
http://kayakforbackpacks.com/
Austin Davis is launching on this exact same trip starting at first light in the morning! I called him but he is wanting to do this all solo ....... but we can all follow him via spot tracker off his website. He didn't know exactly from where he's launching but I'd like to see him off. I offered him a place to stay and whatever else he might need but he seems to have it all together. I'll be there for him regardless ....... and here's the third trip/race I'll be watching via the spot tracker! we are expecting yet another front to come in, so austin's departure won't be at a perfect time. I was wanting to wait a bit so I'd not have to deal with any north winds. I plan on doing a combo of bays, ICW and offshore, depending on conditions at that time. I know I'll want to be offshore from High Island, just past Galveston to Sabine Pass which is the finish. The ICW is just a bit too inland there and the finish I want on the coast, but the weather is what will determine what I'll do!

Yes, for those in the San Antonio area there are some "heros on the water" projects that need volunteers. These help some physically challenged war vets get back on water for recreation http://www.texaskayakfisherman.com/f...4dd4c09b39d757

I had been planning to help the only Thursday I had free during Spring Break- but it was cancelled. I am also in contact with another disabled young man that has lost the use of both legs but wants to get out in a tube or 'toon to do some fishing. Trying to work out some method of water propulsion that is very stable and safe.

Porta

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Harris

I'd be interested to see a direct comparison of different human power application methods, rather than some of the apples & oranges comparisons that are unavoidable with the limited number of HPBs around.

What, I wonder, would be the outcome of this experiment:

- Take three identical hulls, one paddled as a kayak, one fitted with the Hobie flappers and one fitted with an efficient propeller system.

- Each would be crewed by people of identical fitness level (each skilled in their particular crafts propulsion system operation) .

- Let them all go head to head in a race around a triangular course (so each gets to operate in differing wind, wave and current conditions).

- Let the race be long enough to test the average power output of each crew, rather than their peak output.

Which would turn out to be the fastest, and hence most efficient, propulsion system, I wonder?

I would guess that it'd be a close run thing between the paddler and the propeller, with the Hobie system coming last, but it would be interesting to know for sure.

Jeremy

Jeremy
The propeller would do the best.

I have tried the Hobie but it was the short Mirage hull. They are very slow. The over-centre action of the pedals is awkward.

About two years ago an IHPVA contributor did heart rate calibration and then tested his Hobie Adventure. At 8kph (5mph) the flappers achieved an efficiency of 36% based on back calculation of the hull drag. This was his normal sustainable level. The efficiency lifted to 50% around his aerobic limit.

The very beginning of this thread has my heart data from a run I did in Mike Lampi's Cadence so I know where it sits in relation to my boats. It is about the same as my OC1 (V7).

Mike Lampi regularly races against paddled craft and you get a good idea from his results where the Cadence stands in that field:
http://soundrowersandpaddlers.sports...ceResults.aspx
You can get some idea of the average speed but you need to know currents and winds to make real sense of it.

[Busabuck]

Wish to build a pedal powered boat. Probably 24 ft length with narrow beam.
Was thinking foam insulation blocks glued together, shaped, and glassed. Plywood glassed in on top for seat, drive and controls. Any and all input/advise welcomed.