Paper and pencil

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by laukejas, Dec 4, 2014.

  1. tdem
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    tdem Senior Member

    Absolutely. I'm coming at it from the point of view of an amateur/hobbyist, so I waste only my own time.
     
  2. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

    Don't lump all software together. There are major differences with wide variation in functions and capabilities. With some software (Rhino for example) it is entirely possible to create and fair a set of lines using the same methods as used with pencil, paper, splines and ducks. Similarly some software can be used as an integrator/virtual planimeter to measure areas for input to "manual" methods of hydrostatic calculations.
     
  3. laukejas
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    laukejas Senior Member

    I have Principles of Yacht Design, red it about 3 times now. I don't understand most of the advanced math there, but there was still a lot of very useful information.

    By Dixon Kemp, did you mean his "A manual of yacht and boat sailing" (1880)?

    Yes, I indeed noticed this trend. Software design may have opened more possibilities, less guesswork. Still, it's not too late to learn both, I hope...

    Lots of useful information, thank you. I'll save it somewhere. But for now, you see, I don't even know where to start. If I took a A0, I just wouldn't know where to begin. Maybe I need to read the books people here suggested first. And read something on drafting itself.


    Of course, I won't abandon it altogether. It's just that I want to be able to do it manually, should the need arise.


    I'm putting a list of all the books you suggested. Some of them are available freely on the internet, but it seems that I'd have to ship some of them from US via Amazon. Books themselves, especially used, are quite cheap, but the shipping prices are horrible. Maybe if I can order a whole bunch of those books, it would be possible.

    So, here goes, in order of must-have:

    1. The Nature Of Boats by Dave Gerr - available only to order from US, no pdf floating on the internet. Might be expensive. Do any of you have a copy of it you'd be willing to share (for a price, if needed) by scanning and sending through email?
    2. Yacht Designing And Planning by Howard Chappelle - same here. Only Amazon. Any of you have this book, willing to sell scanned copy?
    3. Skene's "Elements of Yacht Design" - found free pdf, downloaded.
    4. "Sailing Theory And Practice" by C.A. Marchaj - found only on Amazon. Extremely expensive, even used. Strikes fear into mine heart. What lies withing that could be worth 150$?
    5. "Model racing yachts - Their architecture, design, construction, and handling" by Benjamin Hamilton - couldn't find this even on Amazon. Again, maybe someone of you have it?
    6. "A manual of yacht and boat sailing (1880)" by Dixon Kemp - found this one freely available as ebook. Downloaded.
    7. "Seaworthiness - the forgotten factor" by C. A. Marchaj - also only on Amazon.
    8. "How to design a boat" by John Teale - downloading now in pdf.

    So, several of these are available, while some of others I can only order from US. Very expensive shipping.

    I'm not saying that I would give my left nut for Gerr's book, but if anyone still has it somewhere... I could pay.

    My PM is also open, if needed for any reason...
     
  4. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs



    I also found this book really useful, I first read it when I was about 12 years old.

    Don't buy the first Marchaj book, the second is much better, I know Tony was later embarrassed by some of what he wrote in the first one.

    You might find this book seller useful

    http://www.fishernauticalbooks.co.uk/default.asp

    The big advantage of drawing on paper is that you can effectively draw to a bigger scale, not many people have an A0 sized screen, so you can visulise a boat easily. Even though people use calculators they are still taught (I hope!) to add and subtract. That way you get a feel for the results.

    You can never have a big enough drawing board. Lots of "ducks" and different thickness splines.

    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/articles/splineducks/splineDucks.htm

    A planimeter if you are serious, otherwise you'll need to count squares on graph paper to get areas

    I have written before that just because you bought a Stratocaster doesn't mean you turn into another Eric Clapton.

    Richard Woods
     
  5. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I do not understand where that advantage. When I use a CAD program, I always work to scale 1/1.
    Sorry, if I'm reading something incorrectly.
     
  6. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    Sorry I realised it was not very elegantly written. Agree, you draw in CAD in 1:1 but you cannot see much of the boat at that scale on the screen.

    You see far more of the general shape of the boat when drawn at say 1:10 on A0 paper, unless you have a very big screen. I find wide screen is best for boats as they tend to be long and thin, unlike houses or cars. But CAD is quicker than pencil to draw

    Also remember a computer helps you draw and calculate, it doesn't design for you. Nor of course does owning Sibelius or Noteworthy turn you into a composer. Neither Mozart nor Lennon used computers.

    RW
     
  7. WindRaf
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    WindRaf Senior Member

    To begin procure a drawing board and pencils 2H.
    And then splints flexible and the lead weights to hold them.
    Start to draw boats with corner section, using the splint only for the slight longitudinal curves.
    With practice will everything else.
     
  8. graywolf
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    graywolf Junior Member

    "Still, it's not too late to learn both, I hope..."

    Never too late to learn, as long as you are still somewhat healthy.

    Drafting is a whole skill in itself, if you do not have a lot of space the old standard in the USA was 12x18 inch sheets. A drawing board for that was not too expensive and could be set up on the kitchen table. Then you need a t-square, a pair of triangles, a set of drafting instruments. At that point you are only out a couple of hundred dollars. Then you need sets of curves, big sets of lots of curves, hundreds of dollars worth of curves. Strangely, those sets of curves are called "ships curves".

    If you had mechanical drafting in school, as I did way back when, you have the basic skills, you just have to learn the boat stuff. If you did not you are looking at couple of years to learn the basics (of course it takes that long to learn Autocad too).

    Another possible way to work, if you are good a sketching, is to just draw sketches of the boat on paper then transfer those to software. The purpose of the sketches is clarify the design in your mind before drafting them in the software. The advantage of that method is that all you need is the drawing board, paper, and some pencils, a fairly cheap proposition. This is basically how I design things these days.

    I wonder if you should be looking at European centric books rather than American ones. The first place to look is in your local university library.
     
  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Richard Woods, whenever I can I say that if you do not know how to work with "paper and pencil" can not design anything with your computer. That said, I am a staunch defender of CAD-CAM.
    Indeed, I work or have worked with boats up to 150 m in length and use a big screen, and above all, lots of resolution: 1900x1200 pixels for the fairing.
    In a big shipyard where I worked, years ago it was decided not to create drawings larger than A3 (for large blocks of steel) to make them more manageable. It was a success.
    I can not say that Mozart would, because I do not know him, but today's composers rarely use paper and pencil. Some of them do not even know music theory. The same applies to some who call themselves ships designers.
    Incidentally, the computer allows me to hear a Mozart symphony while drawing. That paper and pencil does not.;)
    (Lennon, no, but probably Paul Mccartney, yes)
     
  10. Richard Woods
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    Richard Woods Woods Designs

    I agree

    Traditionally building plans were drawn on large sheets of paper as that was easier for the designer. But not so handy for the boatbuilder. By the time he'd finished with one big sheet it was torn, covered with glue and paint, never mind faded in the sun. So I also only now supply drawings on A4 or A3 ("legal" in the US) as they can be printed out as needed.

    I also always supply all dimensions rather than relying on the fact that the drawing is to scale. Not many builders take their laptop into the boat shed

    It does mean that designers now supply many more plan sheets even if there is no more actual detail given.

    But think back to the 1800's, early 1900's. No dyeline printers back then, so if you wanted another drawing you had to trace it.

    Richard Woods
     
  11. NoEyeDeer
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    NoEyeDeer Senior Member

    There isn't any advanced maths in it. Only basic maths. :D


    No, I meant the 1885 book with the humungous Victorian title. It's mainly of historical interest, but still fascinating if you can find a copy. The state library in Sydney actually has an original edition which I've had the pleasure of looking through.

    It's certainly not a must-have book for you, just one that you'd probably find interesting if you can access a copy.


    Larsson and Eliasson has a basic description of manual drafting.



    1/ I've never read Gerr's book, but have read an awful lot of other stuff.

    2/ It's good, but if you already have Skene's, as well as Larrsson and Eliasson, then you don't really need Chapelle.

    3/ As above. Skene's, although dated, is a classic.

    4/ Interesting, but not necessary.

    5/ Ditto. It just happened to be the first technical book I read about yacht design. It's quite comprehensive. Model racing yachts rely on the same general principles as full sized yachts.

    6/ Nice find. It is very dated, obviously, but Kemp was one of the leading NA's of his day.

    7/ This is highly technical in places, but well worth reading. Try a library and see if you can borrow it.

    8/ Read that one ages ago. Good for the basics, but not essential.
     
  12. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Soon we will see foremen, along the slip way or the wharf, taking all the ship's information available, updated instantly, on the screen of their iPad or tablet.
     
  13. laukejas
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    laukejas Senior Member

    Thanks, I've looked through your links. Just to check, I searched if these "ducks" are available to buy in my country. Guess what. I then asked a friend of mine, an architect, and he said that my best bet is to make them myself or order from US.

    Same for planimeter.


    We have a central library website, it searches every library in my country for any book. None of these titles were found.

    As for drafting tools, are you sure I should go at such expense from the very start? Several hundred dollars? One of unspoken reasons why I considered to learn designing on paper is because nautical CAD software is extremely expensive. Surely the needs to design small boats up to 7-8m can be done without spending hundreds for such an expensive drafting instruments. Or am I wrong?



    Thank you for these comments. I'd really like to get Gerr's book anyway... I'll re-check Larsson and Eliasson about drafting. I remember there was something. But I believe they never addressed stuff like manual line fairing, or making development plates without software (these things puzzle me the most).
     
  14. NoEyeDeer
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    NoEyeDeer Senior Member

    Oh and High Performance Sailing: Faster Racing Techniques by Frank Bethwaite is well worth reading too. Try a library.
     

  15. NoEyeDeer
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    NoEyeDeer Senior Member

    Yup. If you could get ducks, they wouldn't be cheap. All you need is weights that will hold down a spline, without getting in the way of your pencil. People have used all sorts of stuff for this job.

    A planimeter will greatly speed up displacement calculations, but you can get by without it.


    Copenhagen ship curves are hard to find and not cheap. Same for Dixon Kemp's curves. At the very least, you will need a good array of French curves, and they had better be good quality ones too (otherwise they'll have lumps).

    You will need a good straight edge, preferably stainless or aluminium. You can make your own splines.


    Manual line fairing is a PITA. Once you finally have it done and want to build the boat, you have to do it all over again at full scale (called lofting) since small scale drawings won't scale up accurately enough for building.

    Manual plate development is a PITA too. You'll need a good understanding of the geometrical principles for that. Brush up on your 3D trig.
     
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