Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors

Go Back   Boat Design Forums > Design > Boat Design
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Most Recent Posts Gallery Images Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-23-2004, 06:59 AM
Portager Portager is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rep: 325 Posts: 418
Location: Southern California
Optimum Ocean Voyager

I am interested in an Ocean voyaging boat for 2 to 4 passengers. It must have a range >2,400 NM with 15% reserve and the selection criteria in decreasing order of importance are: safety, comfort, convenience (it must be operated by the passengers and I want my wife to want to spend her vacations onboard) and minimum cost. I would also like to be compatible with most of the canals in Europe and it should be transportable with an oversized load permit. What type of boat, sail or power and what characteristics would best meet these objectives? Is there a production boat that meets these objectives without compromising too much?

Regards;
Mike Schooley
__________________
Designing "Portager" a transportable passagemaker
Reply With Quote


  #2  
Old 03-23-2004, 08:40 AM
SeaDrive SeaDrive is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rep: 15 Posts: 223
Location: Connecticut
Philip Bolger has designed several boats that approach your requirements. These include 1) Tahiti, a 35' ocean crossing, power cruiser, 2) Weston Martyr, a steel narrowboat meant to be built in Australia for cruising the canals of Eupope, and 3) The Loose Moose (aka AS-39), a big, Bolger-box sharpie designed for liveaboard in the canals of Europe with trans-Atlantic capability.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-23-2004, 08:59 AM
SeaDrive SeaDrive is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rep: 15 Posts: 223
Location: Connecticut
Pics of Loose Moose here: http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as39

I didn't find a drawing of Tahiti on the web, but I do find that she is bigger than I remembered, about 38' 6".
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-24-2004, 06:15 PM
h4marine h4marine is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rep: 10 Posts: 3
Location: UK
sounds like you need an Ovni

The French Ovni, Aluminium with lifting plate, is a great option the 35 is commfortable for 3 or 4, and could sail many thousands of miles for minimum cost...
H4
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-27-2004, 11:02 AM
Polarity Polarity is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rep: 148 Posts: 480
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by h4marine
The French Ovni, Aluminium with lifting plate, is a great option the 35 is commfortable for 3 or 4, and could sail many thousands of miles for minimum cost...
H4
I'm not suer you can use "Ovni" and "minimum cost" in the same sentence

They are great boats and pesonally I love the look of their hard chines, but when a 5 year old Ovni 38 is 190K Eur....

They do get around though!

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-08-2004, 11:48 AM
Portager Portager is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rep: 325 Posts: 418
Location: Southern California
I'm surprised that all the discussion has centered on sailboats, especially when I emphasized safety, comfort, convenience and low cost. I would argue that a properly designed power boat could provide equal or greater safety. Comfort and convenience are not even close and for my wife and me, sailboats are not even a consideration. Cost is probably about the same since what the powerboat saves in rigging, rags and additional displacement due to higher ballast requirements it will spend on a larger engine.

I have read Michael Kasten’s excellent article “Power Boats For Ultimate Conditions” www.kastenmarine.com/running.htm many times and every time I learn a little more. I think the most important factors are high length to beam ratio, low deck structure, offshore stability, roll attenuation, deep rudder and robust/water tight hatches, doors, windows, and ports. There are also important things not to do which include; swim platforms, bulbous bows, large picture windows and high deck structures such as tuna towers and frying bridges.

It is significant to note that no production boat or at least none that I can think of, including the self-proclaimed “Passagemakers”, meet the above mentioned criteria. I would go so far as to say that if you want an Ocean Voyager with ultimate safety, you need to consider custom designs.

Regards;
Mike Schooley
__________________
Designing "Portager" a transportable passagemaker
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-11-2004, 09:44 AM
SeaDrive SeaDrive is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rep: 15 Posts: 223
Location: Connecticut
You should also check out Robert Beebe's book "Voyaging Under Power." It's out in a new addition by James Lieshman. I think it may offer a different point of view from Kasten.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-12-2004, 12:33 AM
Portager Portager is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rep: 325 Posts: 418
Location: Southern California
I have read “Voyaging Under Power” third edition revised by James F. Lieshman. Although Lieshman supports the ideals promoted by Captain Robert Beebe, Kasten expands upon them and plugs the holes.

For example, Beebe utilized the above water to below water area ratio (A/B) whereas Kasten promoted performing stability calculations and meeting IMO offshore and rough weather stability requirements. I’d like to see companies that sell self proclaimed “Passagemakers” back-up their claims by providing their stability curves.

I could go on, but I think sometimes less is more.

Regards;
Mike Schooley
__________________
Designing "Portager" a transportable passagemaker
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-30-2005, 11:57 PM
ky-midnight ky-midnight is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 10 Posts: 1
Location: Ft Riley KS
Look at Bolger's Tahiti

I just got ahold of Bolger's Tahiti design and while like many of his design isn't very traditional, it is excellent. His prices for the plans are very very reasonable, and the boat could probably be built for $30,000 or less if you are frugal. Has an approximate range of over 5800nm. The living space is truly optimized for a couple. She's about 40' by 9', and a very neat little sharpie powerboat.
Very interesting design, and probably worth at least getting the study plans if for just to get some good detail and learn a bit. I highly reccommend her.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:30 AM
u4ea32's Avatar
u4ea32 u4ea32 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 192 Posts: 399
Location: Los Angeles
Still looking too, but not expecting to find...

I am also still looking. The boat I own is still the best I can find, but its very, very far from the ideal.

My prioritization is a bit different than yours, but close:

1) Bang for the buck: as in, most fun for least cost. I probably have a relatively cushy budget, but BftB means the boat can then be bigger.

Therefore:
a) Trailerable, so I never ever pay marina fees, so I can buy fuel on land from the cheapest source, so I can take the boat to a mechanic, so I can work on the boat in my driveway, so I never pay yard bills. That makes a HUGE cost impact.

b) "Very light displacement" because every cost has a displacement factor: fuel, engines, construction, trailer, truck, etc.

c) As simple as possible: "The design isn't done until there is nothing left to remove." Every item on a boat breaks and requires service. More time servicing means less time playing.

2) Sleep two for weeks at a time, feed 6, drink 12. No animals.

a) One head. One shower.
b) 12 linear feet of galley.
c) 8+ linear feet of hanging locker. 10 cubic feet of clothes + linen storage.
d) 6 people inside, 6-12 people outside.

3) Cruise speed 12 to 18 knots, as that's what the ocean generally allows. Can always slow down for range. 12 -18 allows easy one day trips in most places I've been, 6-8 makes many of those tough to pull off in daylight.

4) QUIET. The sound of water and wind, but not mechanical crap.
Therefore:
a) Small engine(s), enabled by light displacement (as mentioned above).
b) Located all the way aft. Under a cabin or pilot house? Nope, way way too hard to supress the noise, vibration, and heat. Easy to transfer torque to the props. Dashew is a constant proponent of this layout. Engines are part of the constant weight structure, just balance it out. Fuel and water needs to be at CG, not the engines.

Things like safety, comfort, etc are a given. I can't trade those off.

I am also finding that its going to be a custom build.

I'll probably build molds so if someone sees it and likes it, I can build another, and maybe another... but "The best way to make a small fortune in the marine industry is to start with a large fortune... and retire early."
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:08 AM
FAST FRED FAST FRED is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Rep: 925 Posts: 4,012
Location: Conn in summers , Ortona FL in winter , with big dock & room for O'nite stop .
"I'm surprised that all the discussion has centered on sailboats, especially when I emphasized safety, comfort, convenience and low cost."

Having seen all the garbage usually considered for EMERGENCY PROPULSION, rusted "wing " engines , belt & chain drives , hyd nightmares , the usual long list, the use of minimal sails seem to make much more sense.

Most sailboats are designed to go near hull speed in light conditions , where the motorist would be putting along.

IF the concept of Ghosting and pointing really high are given up (this IS EMERGENCY power) a well designed hull can go 100NM a day with a remarkably tiny rig.

EZ to buy , tabernakle to stow masts , and if under about 300sq ft per mast, childs work to hoist & trim.

AS the short mast could be part of the flopper stopper setup , and dink crane , it would do some duty while waiting for the need to propell the boat.

The use AS a motorsailor , easing the motion and lowering the fuel bill should not be overlooked either.

FAST FRED
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:35 PM
D'ARTOIS D'ARTOIS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rep: 321 Posts: 1,069
Location: The Netherlands
I think you should read the story of Eilco Casimir, he circumnavigated the world in a small motoryacht, named Bylgia, designed by the Dutch architect Dick Koopmans Sr, with great succes. I followed this story, I knew Eilco personally, a remarkable Dutchman BTW and - that boat still excists!

If I can find any pics and/or info, I wiil post it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:37 PM
D'ARTOIS D'ARTOIS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rep: 321 Posts: 1,069
Location: The Netherlands
It was the first little trawleryacht that cirrcumnavigated the world.....in 1982..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:50 PM
D'ARTOIS D'ARTOIS is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rep: 321 Posts: 1,069
Location: The Netherlands
...and still the smallest; she measured something like 39 1/2 ft - did the circumnavigation in about 272 days - what I recall that she was a nice trawleryacht but due to the many watertight bulkheads the interior was very spartan.
I 'll dig up her full history....some patience required.
Reply With Quote


  #15  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:01 AM
Packeteer Packeteer is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Rep: 10 Posts: 64
Location: S33 E151
Quote:
Originally Posted by u4ea32
Therefore:
a) Trailerable, so I never ever pay marina fees, so I can buy fuel on land from the cheapest source, so I can take the boat to a mechanic, so I can work on the boat in my driveway, so I never pay yard bills. That makes a HUGE cost impact.

b) "Very light displacement" because every cost has a displacement factor: fuel, engines, construction, trailer, truck, etc.

c) As simple as possible: "The design isn't done until there is nothing left to remove." Every item on a boat breaks and requires service. More time servicing means less time playing.

2) Sleep two for weeks at a time, feed 6, drink 12. No animals.

a) One head. One shower.
b) 12 linear feet of galley.
c) 8+ linear feet of hanging locker. 10 cubic feet of clothes + linen storage.
d) 6 people inside, 6-12 people outside.

3) Cruise speed 12 to 18 knots, as that's what the ocean generally allows. Can always slow down for range. 12 -18 allows easy one day trips in most places I've been, 6-8 makes many of those tough to pull off in daylight.

4) QUIET. The sound of water and wind, but not mechanical crap.
Therefore:
a) Small engine(s), enabled by light displacement (as mentioned above).
b) Located all the way aft. Under a cabin or pilot house? Nope, way way too hard to supress the noise, vibration, and heat. Easy to transfer torque to the props. Dashew is a constant proponent of this layout. Engines are part of the constant weight structure, just balance it out. Fuel and water needs to be at CG, not the engines.

Things like safety, comfort, etc are a given. I can't trade those off.
you want all that in a trailerable boat???

I'd think you'd need to go to at least 38ft for the things that you ask. I've had 18 people on a 47ft boat for an afternoon and it was extremely crowded (and I'm used to living in a small city apartment!).
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ocean crossing with motor-yacht phatzih Powerboats 78 12-28-2005 06:50 AM
Homemade Ocean Master eurotk1 Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building 2 10-06-2004 10:59 PM
optimum jib-main proportions dionysis Sailboats 6 08-05-2003 11:36 AM
VOYAGER 60 Long-range cruiser yachtdesigner Boatbuilding 1 08-06-2002 05:15 PM
VOYAGER 60 Long-range cruiser yachtdesigner Powerboats 0 08-04-2002 10:32 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:03 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2014 Boat Design Net