Non fossil fuel propulsion

Plus Timothy would you even call it a boat, or more like an electric scooter.

 

Funny you should say that as in my current iteration of the design the main hull is almost 60' long and contains only two electric bikes and a couple of windsurfers.The Torquedo doubles as a power source for the 18 ft dingy that transports the bikes. I think its more like an electric skate than a scooter.

 

Darn, 60 feet long, what is beam, draft and displacement.

 

length 59' beam 44 ' main hull has a length to beam ratio of 26 to 1 draws 10 " and displaces 5000lbs when flying ama which will be almost always at least that's the idea sail area 1000 'sq total surface area including beams hulls and foils but not solar panels 2500' sq. folds in the water to 31' by 8.5 ' for manuvering and docking in marinas under power and for towing . demounts to 19' 3" by 7' 7.5" for container shipping. I am still working on ways to build it cheaply and to get the total weight trailer included to less than 4000 lbs. standing headroom in the galley and head 4'8" in the salon and 4' in the cabins 2 queens 2 singles started of as a wtw proa but now is more like a stabilized monohull with an outrigger and a lifting foil. I am almost finished building an inch to a foot scale model . I know it will be almost usless because of similtude of scale for any kind of worth while analysis but it has made me more confidant of the structure and mechanics. If I can get it to sail and hold a course with the rudder secured I will pursue the concept. if not its been fun.

 

I have a 18' x 3' canoe that is made of plastic, made by (coleman), it has a squarish transom that I can moment a 5hp engine on. With 2 people it gets up on plane and hauls assss. With 1 person it is just dangerous. I have crossed some pretty amazing bits of water with it. I don't think you need to make main hull so long or so narrow, because you can plane it. Shape it a little like a banana and give your model a try. I think if you want a sail boat the solar panels add too much weight to design. If you go electric boat, the sail portion would be heavily compromised. Weight is a big issue because you need make it strong, the longer the worse. The canoe is aluminum framed with plastic covering. I would suggest that you use and AL frame cover in fiberglass/epoxy but if you take a hit your punctured. Or you can make a foam sandwich.

 

Tim, I think you may be a bit conservative on your capacity to drive weight. My perfectly ordinary sailboat at 17000 pounds can be pushed at 4.5 mph at a fuel burn of .28-.33 gph. Considering I'm using a crappy, pitted, wornout folding prop and am running less than 20% load on the diesel, I think the powertrain you described can manage a more normally shaped hull. The hull you described seems more like a 9 knot hull than a 5 knotter.

Just a guess- were you using 5 meter/sec input in michlet instead of 5 knots by anychance?

Ok, a quick check using Godzilla. 3.5 m3 disp, 2.6 m/s, Rt=.18kN L=11.5 m, beam set at 1.9m by me. Power less than 500 watts.

 

at full throttle I expect 10 knots. Folded for powering in confined spaces the boat will be a power hog and is not going to be a speedster. The dimensions of the hulls were dictated somewhat by the folding function and legal towing constraints but primarily because the boat has to be easy to build, of very shallow draft (beach-able), and fast under sail. Bmw Oracle;s ammas are 26 to 1 l/b. As the solar panels are the only power source and I require both a refrigerator and a freezer as well as other creature comforts I had to provide for the appropriate capacity. I am working on the assumption that in the near future solar panels and energy storage devices will be lighter smaller and cheaper. The dingy should plane with the Torqeedo. I am designing for flat or slightly cambered resin infused panel construction. Surprisingly at least to me It will be the core, not carbon ,resin or glass that is problematic both in terms of weight and expense. At some point if I decide to proceed I will need a competent professional who will no doubt persuade me of the folly of my endeavor. In the mean time it keeps me occupied.

 

I thought this thing looked really well done

http://www.grindtv.com/outdoor/blog...ilds the worlds first solar-powered ski lift/

 

Here is a real boat that is completely solar powered.
http://www.transatlantic21.org/boat/

I think this boat can be built with just a solar and wind option
http://dsehybrid.com/index.html
The new 9m or 10.5m are more the size I am interested in.

Here is a solar concept cruising boat that looks interesting... http://perspective-design.com/EN_River_Barge_solar_powered.html

And I think 2kW of solar power is about $4,000 now (excluding batteries), if you do it yourself like my current system at home. It would be 10 panels covering 15'x10'. 4kW would be $8,000 and take up 30'x10'. It does weigh about 900-1000lbs.

An electric motor runs a few thousands.
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...1151&storeNum=null&subdeptNum=null&classNum=0

Batteries would cost another 5-6 thousand.

But, not needing to buy hundreds of gallons of gas is priceless.

 

Well, no its not, its about $2000.

2kw of power is not even 6HP (say in an Outboard)

Solar enthusiasts talk as as if solar power will produce sufficient output, forever,

The truth is that 2kw wont push a houseboat upriver against a wind and outgoing tide, even IF the sun is shining, and/or the batteries are full.

Meanhile, your ~ $4000 of solar panels will gradually reduce in output until they need replacing
"Although some solar panels are still working satisfactorily 40 years after installation, the conventional view is that most will dip below 80% of their rated capacity within about 20 years. This will vary slightly between manufacturers and between different types of silicon. "
http://www.scitizen.com/future-energies/how-long-do-solar-panels-last-_a-14-2897.html

But Batteries on the other hand, especially if they are discharged below 30%, will not last long
"Most batteries last 3 years. Top of the line can last a bit more.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_long_is_the_estimated_life_of_a_car_battery#ixzz1lTv1SkSw"

So we are talking about ~$5000 every 4 years to support enough power to drive your PC and maybe a TV and video.

Lets also factor in Power Inverters for the machinery that wont run on 12V

Its a bit like the PRIUS. Studies have shown that the ecology of the special batteries, distribution and maintenance use more fossil fuel than an ordinary vehicles.

"CNW Marketing rates cars on the combined energy needed “to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage.” A Prius costs $2.87 per lifetime mile. By comparison, an H3 Hummer costs $2.07 per lifetime mile. Then there will be the problem of disposing of the used batteries."

http://greenhellblog.com/2009/06/22/how-green-is-a-prius/

 

Unfortunately I would have to agree. At present solar or sail cannot compete with fossil fuels. But five years from now?

 

I think this saying applies here:
"Don't let the people who say it can't be done get in the way of the ones who are actually doing it..."

We recycle batteries here. It is better than having to mine the raw components again. And if you have enough solar/wind power and only are interested in moving during the daytime, it won't use much battery life.

As for the Hummer, did they factor in the refining, transport, drilling, and clean up of the air pollution in their math? Let alone what fuel prices might be in a few years?

 

first boat you mentioned looks very unsafe with that huge, heavy canopy up so high, It was also mind bending expensive carbon fiber throughout if I remember.

second boat you mentioned was just mind bending expensive, 1/2+ million later and you to can travel at 5~7 knots or until the sun goes down

the warp electric motors are about the best for the buck out there and they eat juice in a marine application kinda like your high school prom date ate her dinner.

unfortunately I also have been following the electric hybrid developments these last few years and the grim truth is, its just not worth the money, at this time. Cost is huge, maintenance sucks, special components are hard to find. All in all, the technology just isn't there yet.

Five years from now, I think we'll be desperately focusing on climate change and making some important transitions, but marine applications of the technology will end up last on the list given that the resistance factor of traveling through water is so high it takes a lot more efficiency that we presently, or in the next few years will have available

Keep believing though brother, cause the only way to effect positive change is to first believe it can happen. Personally I think we're screwed but I like your enthusiasm, we could probably use a few billion more folks just like yourself

Best of luck
cheers
B

 

Hi Boston and others,
I support the case you put Boston, (keep trying but it aint there yet... My cost about $500000 and not there yet... Admittedly I got stung a couple of times, but the original intention did not materialise as the technology is sadly lacking to do the full package...

I can carry 13 panels giving a nominal 24V and 175W each, for 13.46 KW... The air drag is minimised as the panels fit very snugly on the roof... ($700 per panel plus installation & wiring to marine specifications...)

The concept also relied on a dual genoa rig of about 180 square meters of sail hanging on twin fore-stays via a 12m mast set a bit aft of midships (mast and sails not done yet through lack of $$$)

The electric drive was scrapped, The battery charger (6000W and either 24 or 48 VDC using DELCO 24 pole alternators and special control circuitry) is still for sale at around $6000

Half the battery capacity was not installed and 6V batteries used instead of the desirable 2V heavier individual cells because of weight constraints for AGM and cost blowout on the "NiFePO4" and other solid state batteries...

I still have an electric galley, but propulsion is a pair of nanni 20hp saildrive legs giving 10Knots+ a little bit with both running and around 6litres/hour some 1.6 miles per litre on around 1700 litres of diesel and some very complex electrical circuits to keep things running 24/7 when making a long passage... Normal cruising is about 8 hours, anchor up and depart next day at around dawn if I am moving... The boat has high bridgedeck clearance, as per its sailing heritage and is proven in moderate oceanic seas and the steep sheltered waters inside the southern end of the Barrier Reef and down to Brisbane, in Gale-force conditions (40knots over the deck) with no hassles...

Diesel engines will be with us for a long time yet... In the tropics, (ambient temperature above 24C so the fuel will not solidify), I can run on coconut oil (neat), filtered to smaller than 5 microns to remove particulate matter, with no hassles...

So experience confirms, solar bowered boats are not there yet and diesel powered will have to get VERY expensive to be beaten by sail for a while too... (most sailboats have diesel power anyway....)

 

I guess the real issue is does spending 10k on the panels alone make practical sense when 10k would buy how much fuel ?

thats the true measure of whether the technology is there yet