Non fossil fuel propulsion

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by rob denney, Sep 10, 2011.

  1. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    There is a multi-thousand (probably just slight exaggaration) page thread on climate change. No point arguing it on this one - or with fast fred.

    For this threads sake lets accept the climate chnage (man made) and if that doesn't suit you move on to another thread.
    I like this part from a blogger's disclaimer about his moderation policies.

    Like the LA Times, global warming denying comments are always irrelevant on barnardonwind.com and will always fail moderation checks. Barnardonwind.com respects the 97.1% of climate science peer-reviewed papers which have established a position on global warming and the 98% of climate scientists who have stated their position and agree that global warming is real, it’s caused by humans and it’s serious. The only real debate is what to do about it, which is a primary focus of this blog.


    Same here imo.
     
  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Fred - its hard for many peopke to put faith in mysterious numbers and hi-falutin predictions, but you can see the problem for real in so many ways if you know where to look.

    It manifests itself all over the world in different ways. If you do a bit of reading, I am sure you can get information on your area.

    I have been watching the work on warming of the oceans, particularly the Pacific - where much of the heat that was expected to warm the atmosphere has gone over the last 20 years.

    It manifests itself in my part of the world as fish species that were never seen 600 kilometers north, are now common, and species that I used to catch have all but disappeared. Huge kelp forests have gone, and the rain patterns have changed a lot.

    You may not live long enough to have to suffer strong observable effects, and convincing you wont have the slightest effect on the problem , so I hope enjoy your own personal reality.
     
  3. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    Yes, and unicorns exist, and man didn't land on the moon.
     
  4. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    AGW is a hoax. So degrades another thread.
     
  5. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    you believe in god but not agw. classic.:D.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yeah - theres really no such thing as Carbon Dioxide and Methane - there are only 4 elements, Fire, Wind Earth and Water.

    An whats this conspiracy about the Earth being a sphere floating in space ?

    .... it never ceases to amaze me how a mind can reject things that it cant handle, and invent myths as to why everyone elses thinking is wrong :rolleyes:
     
  7. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Minor detail - Fast Fred is quite correct WRT his comments on predictive models. They most certainly do predict, but their predictions have consistently been invalidated by real-world data as time goes on.

    Therefore, the models, as they have existed to date, are useless and any forward predictions and policy based on such modelling is also useless.

    GIGO hasn't been invalidated. One day there might be a decent model with predictive value but I'm not holding my breath.

    PDW
     
  8. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    'Everyone' knows the reason that they call predictions 'models' - that its a 'best calculation', and gets constantly reviewed and reconsidered by a huge number of people.

    As part of the constant review, the lack of predicted atmosphere warming has well and truly been covered by the changes found in the worlds oceans, as I alluded to in a previous post. Global warming is alive and well, but not all in the planets gasses.

    "The Oceans are changing. Many observations show that the ocean has been changing over the last several decades. One aspect of this is a warming ocean resulting in increase of ocean volume through thermal expansion. There has also been addition of water from glacier and ice sheets and changes in storage of water on or in the land (e.g. retention of water in man-made dams and extraction of water from aquifers). These together result in changes in sea level. "
    http://www.cmar.csiro.au/sealevel/

    I use this particular link as you are in a position to verify the data used by the CSIRO first hand.

    The rate of ocean level increase caused by the warming water wont be able to launch your boat soon unfortunately, but the increased ocean acidification, the havoc being wreaked on marine life and the affects on weather are becoming more obvious daily.
     

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  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Lead Poisoning

    I watched this program last night on National Geographic's TV. It was quite fascinating. And most interesting was the barriers that were fought with the oil giants about elimination of lead from our automobile gasolines

    http://www.space.com/25579-cosmos-recap-earth-age-lead-poisoning.html
    'Cosmos' Recap: What Lead Poisoning and Earth's Age Have in Common

     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  10. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Before fossil fuels, the best propulsion was provided by the wind acting on sails.


    Oars work pretty well too.
     
  11. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    There is no OR. Renewable development DEPENDS on non-renewable fuels and efficiency improvements for the economic and political environment it needs to develop any reasonable capability. Even the best renewable technologies are nearly useless without fossil fuel backup production, and without dramatic improvements in efficiency (more can be achieved in use than production) renewables have no foreseeable future. Renewable energy is almost entirely dependent on government subsidy and government's political stability depends on fossil fuel economic production. If you shut off fossil fuels governments will fall to dictators and global warming deniers. Look at Germany bowing to Russia. Germany spent about a trillion dollars on renewables, Russia ramped up oil and gas production -net result, more carbon dioxide produced. When Ukraine looks for a future Russia grabs it and Germany says they can't afford to do anything about it.

    Global warming and all environmental concerns are going to take global cooperation. Denial of the limitations of renewables is not much different than the denials of man made carbon dioxide levels. Both are counterproductive.
     
  12. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Everyone who thinks man-made CO2 is harmful hold your breath for 5 minutes.

    1-2-3 GO.
     
  13. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I really couldn't care much about this at all.

    My point was simply that all those 'models' that are used to 'predict' global warming consequences in say 2100 are useless. GIGO. Therefore anything based on such predictions, extrapolations et al is equally useless. Policies based on such models are based on nothing yet the consequences are real.

    As for sea level rise, tell me something new. I live on the edge of a drowned river valley, as do you. How did it get drowned? Let's see, might have something to do with global warming that started 20 *thousand* years ago and is still continuing today. Now that is truly amazing.....

    The acidification argument has my BS detector going off, too. Reason being, the fossil record shows marine organisms with CaCO3 skeletal structures going back hundreds of millions of years. Limestone beds tens of metres thick, remnants of dead marine organisms. Over the same time span there have been multiple periods of high atmospheric CO2 yet those organisms persisted. So on the face of it, the acidification argument fails.

    Now, it is possible that *rate of change of CO2* from say mid 20C may do stuff that previous geological history doesn't show if continued into the future, but that's a lot more complex argument to make. Off you go and try to make it.... show me some experimental data.

    As for deep ocean warming, I'm sitting on 20 years of data for the 1000m depth layer (at a single point though) and must stop playing boats long enough to finish working it up properly. I have no idea what it's going to show.

    PDW
     
  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    I think the UN should get its act together and BAN the next volcano eruption!

    SAVE THE WORLD !!!
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    easy - straight from the fount of all knowledge - Wikipediae
    "Ocean acidification has occurred previously in Earth's history. The most notable example is the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM),[14] which occurred approximately 56 million years ago. For reasons that are currently uncertain, massive amounts of carbon entered the ocean and atmosphere, and led to the dissolution of carbonate sediments in all ocean basins."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

    So, the argument doesnt fail - its happened before, exactly how its happening now -

    Indeed - it will be interesting. I would be happy to bet a meal at the local pub, the temperature of the ocean will be increasing.
     
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