Non fossil fuel propulsion

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Boston

why spend trillions developing and implementing a new technology when simply using a different liquid fuel that costs half what dino based diesel costs would pretty much fix our energy issues with no expenditure required of the consumer ???????

Well Boston, If you can guarantee me that no agriculture land is lost to bio-fuel production and that the price of food does not go up by more than the average inflation, I will back you up. Also you must guarantee me that they do not cut more forests in Brazil, to gain bio-fuel production land. Otherwise we have an even bigger problem than paying more for our diesel and gas. If you can do that, you are right and I will agree with you. Bert

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Under all circumstances the work required to liquify the air will always be more than the work obtained from the engine. That's a direct inescapable consequence of the laws of thermodynamics.

So the question of whether such an engine would be economical depends on the efficiencies of the liquifier and engine, as well as the costs of maintaining the thermally insulated liquid.

This last bit - keeping the 'air' cold (-256 degrees Fahrenheit.) seems to be the dealbreaker to me. I know how much a fridge costs to run.

http://www.dearmanengine.com/cms/201...om-liquid-air/


As for being "the latest new thing" :-

"Shiel did describe ships powered by liquid air engines, which could easily be handled by Adam Jeffson, the last man alive, on his travels around the empty planet. The coal powered steamships of the day required intensive backbreaking labor to shovel coal from shore side to ship board bins. Once refueled, steamships still required a black gang to stoke the fire and otherwise tend the boiler to maintain steam pressure to run the engine. On any ship capable of realistic ocean travel, as opposed to a small steam launch, such as depicted in The African Queen, steam power was simply not a one person operation. I always assumed Shiel had just made his liquid air engines up — created a black box — to solve the problem of how to get his character around the world unaided in the era of coal power.
But, I was wrong. There were numerous popular science articles about this wondrous new technology in 1899, the liquid air engine, based on the claimed discovery of a new process for producing liquid air at minimal cost. For instance, in the Review of Reviews, London, Vol 19, March 1899, at pp 244-245, appeared an abstract of an article from the March issue of McClure’s Magazine. It read in part:

Unlimited Power at Next to No Cost,.... Think of the
ocean greyhound unencumbered with coal bunkers,
and sweltering boilers, and smokestacks, making her
power as she sails, from the free sea air around her!

Shiel wrote The Purple Cloud in 1899-1900 when this sort of wonderful hype was in the news. At least as late as 1903 popular science writers were still speculating about how liquid air power might revolutionize the world, if the claims of the new method of cheaply producing liquid air, first announced in 1899, proved to be commercially feasible. "

http://alangullette.com/lit/shiel/es...ir_engines.htm

Ach well, whatever we do, we will have advantages and disadvantages. Thus let me believe that Boston is right and that he guarantees me, no food price increases. It may very well be the best solution. Bert

[Boston]

its called reality Bert, and it seldom comes with guarantees. But unless it makes financial sense to build an algae pond directly on productive farmland then it seems pretty obvious that its not likely to interfere with food production., If anything it will enhance it due to improving climactic conditions and because the only byproduct is a plant waste concentrate ( pellets ) that makes perfect fertilizer just the way it is. Can also be used as animal feed. I can think of at least a couple horses that will eat pretty much anything green that isn't running away from them.

cheers
B

[Stumble]

The ideal land for closed system algae production is actually areas that are not great farm land. Deserts, with deep aquifers are a special favorite, thanks to the high amount of sunlight, little cloud cover, and high tempratures. Basically land that has little commercial value now.

Additionally what the closed loop systems need a lot of is CO2, with at least one start up I know taking the exhaust from a coal fired plant and using it as feed for the algae. This worked great on two levels, one it captured the gas from the power station, then it created fuel for a second generator, which also created co2 for the algae... It wasn't a closed loup, but it did see large gains, sadly the company couldnt figure out the process before they ran out of money.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Boston

its called reality Bert, and it seldom comes with guarantees. But unless it makes financial sense to build an algae pond directly on productive farmland then it seems pretty obvious that its not likely to interfere with food production., If anything it will enhance it due to improving climactic conditions and because the only byproduct is a plant waste concentrate ( pellets ) that makes perfect fertilizer just the way it is. Can also be used as animal feed. I can think of at least a couple horses that will eat pretty much anything green that isn't running away from them.

cheers
B

My apology, I was always under the impression that sunflower and other agricultural production was mainly used for bio-diesel.
Bert

[Boston]

no worries, that was way back at the beginning of the search for a bio diesel feed stock, as time has gone on better and better feed stocks have been found until finally certain algae's were noticed to have extremely high lipid fat contents. These algaes are now being farmed in pilot programs that are pounding out bio diesel at a cost of about $2 a gallon. Certainly they are the best option we have for alternative power, if we can only get it together fast enough to make a difference. The oil and gas giants are even getting in on it, although quietly.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Boston

The oil and gas giants are even getting in on it, although quietly.

That is what worries me. They did the same to us while I was involved in the solar energy association. We had a plan on the table to make Solar Cells for less than 25 dollar cents per watt, in view that we had a very good quality silicon sand and electricity and labour was cheap in those days. The oil companies moved in, took the treasure, vice chairman and chairmanship over and that was the end of inexpensive solar cells. I am concerned that they will do the same to bio-diesel production. Bert

[mydauphin]

I was looking at doing a biodiesel plant in Haiti, guess who made the profit on the diesel distribution through out the country. You guest it if you thought it was the government.That is why most government would rather band biodiesel than promote it.

[Boston]

oh definitely, why do you think we give the five top oil producers who made something like 150 billion last year 10 billion in subsidies per anum. Its the graft money to send back though the lobbying process. Which goes straight to the top. Which is why there's so much resistance to alternative fuels. It doesn't concentrate the profits at the top.

biodiesel is best made/distributed at the municipal level where transportation costs are low. Its the one thing about alternative fuels that frightens the multinationals. Once they take off they'll loose control of the energy sector

[rwatson]

Good news - Solar is cheaper than Diesel

India's panel price crash could spark solar revolution

"Now the generators could be on their way out. In India, electricity from solar supplied to the grid has fallen to just 8.78 rupees per kilowatt-hour compared with 17 rupees for diesel. The drop has little to do with improvements in the notoriously poor efficiency of solar panels: industrial panels still only convert 15 to 18 per cent of the energy they receive into electricity. But they are now much cheaper to produce, so inefficiency is no longer a major sticking point."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...evolution.html

[Boston]

Well that is good news, now lets just hope they can keep up with demand, at the reduced price.

cheers
B

[Boston]

Someone figured out how to draw electricity from Microbes

200 watts pr meter^3 so still not much but its a start.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0221212614.htm

[spidennis]

Originally Posted by Boston

Someone figured out how to draw electricity from Microbes

200 watts pr meter^3 so still not much but its a start.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0221212614.htm

We could turn couch potatoes into "copper tops" like in the movie "The Matrix".

[rob denney]

Fascinating thread, thanks for all the input.

The call for papers for the 3rd Symposium on Marine Propulsors in Tasmania, Australia next year has just been released.

Information on the Symposium can be found at www.marinepropulsors.com

Any questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Rob

[sdowney717]

liquid air engine is never going to work
not enough power, run out of fuel, liquify the air costs too much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOImbv_xcT8

oil is not a fossil fuel, it is produced abiotically in the earth.
http://www.viewzone.com/abioticoilx.html
http://www.americantraditions.org/Ar...20of%20Oil.htm


We will never run out of oil or coal. these other diversions are going to prove to be investor boondoggles.

If you can develop thorium nuclear power for boats, then that will work. Thorium is abundant compared with uranium. but then you know the greens will jack up the costs with lots of regulatory red tape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle