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  #16  
Old 01-01-2012, 11:22 AM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve W View Post
No its not, if they consider that not running an engine would effect the outcome (and they clearly do or else they wouldnt be doing it) then they are motorsailing.
Steve.
===========================
This same argument fills several threads in the "Sailboats" forum. It's interesting that the same people who make this argument probably think using trapezes for RM is quite ok and using a canting keel on an 18 footer is ok because the guy can move it by hand. But ,in the name of the so-called "purity" of sailing they say that a boat whose motive power is developed 100% by sails is a "motorsailer" because the keel is too heavy to move by hand. Instead of the awesome technological achievement in the design of great sailboats like Wild Oats they see a powerboat! Too bad and too sad....
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  #17  
Old 01-01-2012, 02:25 PM
michael pierzga michael pierzga is offline
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I spent 2 decades as an ocean racing crew and Yah, I concider the present state of generator powered ocean racing sad. A joke.

You may find this incredible, but in the past we were prohibited to communicate outside...no weather routing....

The present fleet is all Gee Whizz, !!! look how fast im going , sure hope I dont explode, rich boys in thier toys.
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  #18  
Old 01-01-2012, 05:18 PM
pdwiley pdwiley is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
===========================
This same argument fills several threads in the "Sailboats" forum. It's interesting that the same people who make this argument probably think using trapezes for RM is quite ok and using a canting keel on an 18 footer is ok because the guy can move it by hand. But ,in the name of the so-called "purity" of sailing they say that a boat whose motive power is developed 100% by sails is a "motorsailer" because the keel is too heavy to move by hand. Instead of the awesome technological achievement in the design of great sailboats like Wild Oats they see a powerboat! Too bad and too sad....
You're conflating 2 separate things.

First, I'd agree that those boats are technological marvels and wonderful examples of what can be done with a big budget and advanced materials.

However, if they can't sail without an engine running, they are *not* pure sailboats. It's obvious that you don't want to agree, however if they can't sail without an engine running, they aren't sailboats in the classic meaning of the term.

They should be in their own racing class as power assisted sailboats.

As history has shown it possible to build much larger & heavier displacement vessels powered only by human muscle, think of it as a challenge not a limitation. Let them use all the advanced materials science and technology they like, caveat being it all has to be powered by the muscle power of the crew aboard.

PDW
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2012, 05:34 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Fast sailing

From the past incarnations of this argument it has been pointed out that most modern ocean racers run their engines a lot during racing to charge their batteries to keep their computers running so they know where they are how fast they are etc,etc.
Nothing will ever convince me that the elegant, magnificent, very fast Wild Oats is anything but one the most outstanding racing sailboats ever built sailed and raced by mankind.....
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2012, 08:07 PM
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rwatson rwatson is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
..... Nothing will ever convince me that the elegant, magnificent, very fast Wild Oats is anything but one the most outstanding racing sailboats ever built sailed and raced by mankind.....
However, to my way of thinking, its one of the silliest machines ever built - what useful thing does it do except generate publicity, keep engineers and sailmakers off the breadline, and stroke the egos of its owners ? Its a Paris Hilton of boats - pretty, extremely expensive and largely useless.

As for being fast - most $25,000 motorboats are faster up the harbour, and most commercial passenger craft could beat it from Sydney to Hobart in any kind of weather, and cost half the price per nautical mile.

It rates up there along with the moon landings and $500 Prada handbags.

Still - common sense is never high on the priority list of the majority of us naked apes.
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  #21  
Old 01-01-2012, 08:47 PM
pdwiley pdwiley is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
From the past incarnations of this argument it has been pointed out that most modern ocean racers run their engines a lot during racing to charge their batteries to keep their computers running so they know where they are how fast they are etc,etc.
Nothing will ever convince me that the elegant, magnificent, very fast Wild Oats is anything but one the most outstanding racing sailboats ever built sailed and raced by mankind.....
..... and thereby making both my points for me.

Modern racers can't do what 19C muscle powered sailboats could do, and nothing is going to change your mind.

However, the facts are self-evident. An unpowered H28 can beat an unpowered Wild Oats over any course, any time. It therefore is a power assisted sailboat, not a sailboat.

I appreciate it for what it is, I just don't pretend it's something it's not as you do. I've been down at the docks a few times in the last few days, looking at the boats, the women and sinking a few drinks in T42 while the parade goes by.

PDW
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  #22  
Old 01-01-2012, 08:49 PM
Silver Raven Silver Raven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
From the past incarnations of this argument it has been pointed out that most modern ocean racers run their engines a lot during racing to charge their batteries to keep their computers running so they know where they are how fast they are etc,etc.
Nothing will ever convince me that the elegant, magnificent, very fast Wild Oats is anything but one the most outstanding racing sailboats ever built sailed and raced by mankind.....
YEA - WHAT HE SAID. Thanks Doug. To the rest of the 'knockers's's' in here - with this subject. Can you give me a date when engines were first allowed to 'power-up' gear on ocean racing yachts in - let's say - The Sydney to Hobart.

NO - of course you can't - cause you haven't done - 10 or more & 2 cause you haven't got your facts correct. WO 11 is a motor-boat - my ass. Get a life will-yah please. All - open-minded - observations accepted - closed minded statements from those that don't know - put-in-bin. 'Watson' - just to get your story right - which I'm very disappointed in you - please get your facts right - it was the main-sail the chap was asking about - not the headsail. If I - as he'd done - had made the sail - I'd want to know also. It only cost 1/2 a million bucks & is the highest tech main ever made. OH & by the way - we will all get better sails in the future - directly - because of these developments - or are you still lifing in a closed shoe box?

Fab 2012, 13, 14 - to everyone. I trust you'll all stay healthy, be happy (if you'll allow yourselves to do that positive thing), & get lots of sailing done - with or without a motor. Ciao, from down under, james (multihull lover * sailor

For a start - How many of the 'smarts' have done Sydney to Hobart - races.

Back in the early 70's yachrts like (99% of the whole fleet) S&S 34's were running their engines for over 85% of the time - to keep systems going.

Hay guys - what's your problem - other than your way to young to know the whole history of the events of the day.
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  #23  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Milehog Milehog is offline
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I love to see a fast monohull. Thing is, you gotta wonder where this power assisted technology will lead. The keel as well as the mast, sails and winches are indeed part of the propulsion system. An entirely different thing compared to running a generator for navigation and household purposes.
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:37 PM
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rwatson rwatson is offline
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Originally Posted by Silver Raven View Post
YEA - WHAT HE SAID. Thanks Doug. To the rest of the 'knockers's's' in here - with this subject. Can you give me a date when engines were first allowed to 'power-up' gear on ocean racing yachts in - let's say - The Sydney to Hobart.

NO - of course you can't - ..... .
yes I can ! Starting with the first date of the discussion for the rules change for canting keels
http://www.cyca.com.au/newsDetail.asp?key=2349

right through to the change in rules - just go through the minutes of the CYC - any fool can do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Raven View Post
cause you haven't got your facts correct. WO 11 is a motor-boat - my ass. Get a life will-yah please. All - open-minded - observations accepted - closed minded statements from those that don't know - put-in-bin. 'Watson' - just to get your story right - which I'm very disappointed in you - please get your facts right - it was the main-sail the chap was asking about - not the headsail. If I - as he'd done - had made the sail - I'd want to know also. It only cost 1/2 a million bucks & is the highest tech main ever made.

My facts are near enough - it was both sails, not just the headsail -
"In an audio recording, Investec Loyal tactician Michael Coxon was heard asking a media helicopter pilot: “Can you confirm, does Wild Oats have their trysail up? What color is the mainsail they’ve got up?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...=pm_sports_pop

I saw him on TV, and he commented on the foresail particularly on the headsail.

get your facts right !!!!

WO is not a motor boat - and it certainly isn't a sailing boat. !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Raven View Post
For a start - How many of the 'smarts' have done Sydney to Hobart - races.

Back in the early 70's yachrts like (99% of the whole fleet) S&S 34's were running their engines for over 85% of the time - to keep systems going.
Navigation systems is one thing, driving major hardware is another. Hey - lets make the whole race radio controlled like the planes over Afghanistan so we don't have to risk life and limb on the open ocean. We can have remote control via the internet - anyone can pay $50 per hour to steer Wild Oats for an hour in the race !!!!


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Hay guys - what's your problem - other than your way to young to know the whole history of the events of the day.
I bet I have been following the race longer than you. I am 60 next year.
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  #25  
Old 01-01-2012, 09:45 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Originally Posted by rwatson View Post
We can have remote control via the internet - anyone can pay $50 per hour to steer Wild Oats for an hour in the race !!!!

I bet I have been following the race longer than you. I am 60 next year.
==============
Now thats a damn good idea!
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2012, 12:10 AM
Silver Raven Silver Raven is offline
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Originally Posted by rwatson View Post
yes I can ! Starting with the first date of the discussion for the rules change for canting keels
http://www.cyca.com.au/newsDetail.asp?key=2349

right through to the change in rules - just go through the minutes of the CYC - any fool can do that.





My facts are near enough - it was both sails, not just the headsail -
"In an audio recording, Investec Loyal tactician Michael Coxon was heard asking a media helicopter pilot: “Can you confirm, does Wild Oats have their trysail up? What color is the mainsail they’ve got up?”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...=pm_sports_pop

I saw him on TV, and he commented on the foresail particularly on the headsail.

get your facts right !!!!

WO is not a motor boat - and it certainly isn't a sailing boat. !!



Navigation systems is one thing, driving major hardware is another. Hey - lets make the whole race radio controlled like the planes over Afghanistan so we don't have to risk life and limb on the open ocean. We can have remote control via the internet - anyone can pay $50 per hour to steer Wild Oats for an hour in the race !!!!




I bet I have been following the race longer than you. I am 60 next year.
Foot in mouth desease - dear Watson.

"any fool can do that" WISER fools than you - much wiser than you are every likely to be. The worlds best international rules jury & even some of them come from OZ. Fortunately - they have chosen to move on with the times, thank Gawd or we'd all be stuck in the same time-warp as you & Gawd forbid that. I actually drive a car to town & the markets with my fruit & vegs & not ride a pushy 50 ks each way - just 10 to 15 a day for excercise.

Watson - I'll call your bet - raise yours by 12 & see your real hand. Am 72, still building the occasional yacht - spent my whole working life-time doing just that - sold my first one for cash dollars in 1951 - built the first one in 1949 both before you were born. Shame your not up to speed of 21 century, but we'll all help you - boy what a task that's going to be. Imagine trying to put brains in a rock. Open up your mind to the real new world & although I do see your point of view - allow me to totally disagree with you & your point of view - for a sailors point of view.

And for the other guy - with 2 decades of experience - great point of view - don't agree with you either & I've only been racing, sailing & cruising since 1955. So much for your 20 years - which is not really all that long.
The likes of 28 to 36 year old AC 45 sailors have your amount of experience & don't need to 'big-note' themselves about it. They just get on with it.

Back as far as 1964/5 - Hobart racers were using engines to power batteries to assist them to win a Hobart - the use of 'electro-magnatic compases' & sophisticated navigational equipment being used was a great advantage to both sailing & knowing where to sail & when to tack. Needed to run engine to power-ups the batteries or they'd have been flat before Eden, NSW.

I've never watched a Hobart finish - far to busy getting the boat across the finish line in the best position possible to waste time watching what we might have looked like from land, so you've got me there. Far more experience than I've got. Congratulations ther.
By the way - how many Hobarts, Bris to Gldstns, Trans-pac's races have you been on board for??

You have a great 2012 & enjoy what ever it is that you get your jollies from. Ciao, james in Far North Queensland.
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  #27  
Old 01-02-2012, 12:21 AM
BPL BPL is offline
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Foot in mouth desease

Shame your not up to speed of 21 century, but we'll all help you - boy what a task that's going to be. Imagine trying to put brains in a rock.
And sailors like to criticize powerboaters as the drunk and disorderly crowd!
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2012, 12:33 AM
Mr Efficiency Mr Efficiency is offline
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Sounds like Silver Raven has accidentally swallowed a bottle full of industrial strength " Cranky Pills".
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:05 AM
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rwatson rwatson is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
==============
Now thats a damn good idea!
It is! - I reckon it would have to be closer to $300 per hour, but what a hoot.

I got down to see some A Class radio control Model yacht competition the other day, - I reckon a 12 foot version, totally satellite controlled long distance ocean racing would be the go.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:09 AM
Silver Raven Silver Raven is offline
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Sounds like Silver Raven has accidentally swallowed a bottle full of industrial strength " Cranky Pills".
G'day Mr.E. Have you got a solution for my problem? Ciao, james Oh & I'll stop taking mt regular daily course of - indystrial strength "C-P's" promise.
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