New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

[Guillermo]

Interesting boat, Brian, thanks
Do you mind if I cross-post also this info at the 'containerable motorsailers' thread, just to gather there all possible information about such boats?

Cheers.

[Tad]

That boat has already been posted on the Containerable Motorsailors thread, more info on the build and design here.....

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...boat-9093.html

Not a huge success

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Interesting boat, Brian, thanks
Do you mind if I cross-post also this info at the 'containerable motorsailers' thread, just to gather there all possible information about such boats?

Cheers.

Not at all Guillermo, I assume you mean to link it on this forum.

I have a problem with that Cruisers forum...just too much moderation...almost a 'if it didn't originate there, it wasn't allowed' atmosphere. I had several of my postings removed from that forum by the moderators, and when I posted a complaint under AN EXISTING subject thread on the matter I was told this was not allowed... making a negative comment about too much 'moderation'. It appears as though one is not allowed to post any negative feedback...real freedom of speech over there.

[will101]

Howdy I'm a bit behind in this discussion but it I find it very interesting. I'm essentially a powerboater and locally our fishing grounds for tunny is a 30 to 40 nautical mile trip offshore. In the summer months when fishing is good, the return trip is pretty much downwind. I have a 22ft sportfisher which weighs between 1 and 1.5tons depending on load.
I have often toyed with returning to base in a kite-assisted manner, even if only at about 5knots. Is there anyone that might be thinking along the same lines?
Obviously the main drawcard would be fuel savings, with a fishing outing for the day often costing between $300 and $600 in fuel.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by will101

....I have often toyed with returning to base in a kite-assisted manner, even if only at about 5knots. Is there anyone that might be thinking along the same lines?
Obviously the main drawcard would be fuel savings, with a fishing outing for the day often costing between $300 and $600 in fuel.

I think there are folks thinking about this, but many have probably relaxed again with the drop in Crude prices...but don't get too relaxed, those prices will be back soon with a vengeance.

And likely there are very few of those fishing guys reading this sort of subject thread.

[brian eiland]

In a recent discussion on Passagemaking Under Power, the subject of "Get Home Power" came up

Originally Posted by Patrick

.... I too have conventional sails as a "get someplace" alternative. Is that the perfect solution? Not by a longshot.

Right now, I am exploring the possibility of a para-wing kite as a more controllable system. My neighbor is an avid kite boarder and I am learning the nuances of kiting.

The response was interesting:

We had looked at using a traction kite several years back on Swan Song. I had several emails, calls and proposals from a couple of companies interested in the project but when push came to shove nothing developed that could be purchased then.

There have been many kite advances in the past few years and I think that a kite is a very viable aux power system for a passagemaker. Both as a "get home" and fuel saver on long passages. Significant power can be developed with a traction ( as opposed to a sport kite) kite in the off wind passages that most of us favor. I for one really don't like slogging into head seas/winds for days on end even tho our recent Mexico-Hawaii passage had two full days of this. Beam and aft wind/seas are much preferable. Most passagemaking, as opposed to delivery passage planning, should focus on making major runs with the wind/sea aft of beam. This blends into the strength of the kite.

Kites can offer power from 110 degrees off the wind. This translates into a usable arc of ~140 degrees. All but 500 miles of our recent 2700 km passage, for example, would fit in this wind angle.

A kite with a nominal pull of 20-25 HP would have given us a ~ 4 kt speed under kite alone or decreased our fuel consumption by about half. So we'd have a "range extender" and Swan Song would have an 8000 km range vs. the 4000 miles we have based on the MX-HI trip. A significant advantage, IMHO.

How big a kite to do generate this pull? That is very dependant on the design. Spinnaker type kites are large but inexpensive and have several disadvantages mostly becoming a drogue :-( Rigid wing kites are much easier to fly, can be water launched and recovered from the water easily. They are controlled from a single control point with two or three lines. There are designs range from self inflating (not good for us). to ones with battens to those that are inflated with pressure for shape (best for us, I think). All of the rigid wings develop more power than the early spinnaker designs for a given size. Size and design is important in launching from a deck as we don't want to intentionally launch from the water nor have an unruly web of fabric/lines looking for a place to self destruct.

Launching from a foredeck pylon, aka a small mast, could be easy and once launched the kite flies from just above deck level to what ever altitude you desire. The higher it is the more wind there is thereby the more available power. Parked over head they develop no power. As you pull the control lines they move forward of the boat and generate incredible power. Easing the trim and they depower instantly. Using the trim to move them from side to side increase the average power even more.

Sitting a kite surfer of the foredeck in a chair strapped down to the deck with a seatbelt should be a good seat of the pants test as how one of these work and could be adapted to a passagemaker.

This certainly would be far cheaper than a wing engine, I couldn't see more than $15K for the whole system, and it would not have the issues of space and additional fuel consumption of twins.

I suspect we'll see someone doing this in the not to distant future...perhaps Patrick and his avid kite boarder friend can try it out and send us a picture with some data. Pulling around a Willard 40 in La Paz would be in the least a good tourist attraction and perhaps even a fun YouTube video ;-)

[will101]

I intend doing the same and will report back for interest sake. I have a 10sqm surfing kite and my thinking is that if that kite can get a 100kg person airborne - with power to spare, it should be good for a pull of about 10 to 15hp. Enough to get up to 5 knots on my boat, which is ideal for trolling lures - something which really chows fuel and is disliked by 2stroke outboards. Hey, every bit helps!

[Fanie]

Hi Will,

Put some pics up will you ? It would be most interesting to see.

[sigurd]

Originally Posted by apex1

And on a long passage you do that controlling by fingertips, yes? Like playing a piano?
Thats a idea out of the dump-box, for sure.

For this task, computer- or analog-controlled, kite powered pneumatic/ hydraulic muscles are indicated. you know, stuff a bladder into a hollow-braid.
use the force variation of the traction line(s) to pressurize air, to be used for pulling the control lines.

more like playing a bagpipe.

edit. but of course there is accelerometers on the kite/string, or any number of other sensors (from the rc aviation shelves), to feed the valve control cirquit! those things and their energy source weighs but naught!

edit. obviously, the yaw, pitch and roll of the boat can be modulated the same way.

[apex1]

Sigurd we had that debate on several occasions. I know whats possible, and have mentioned it a dozen times now.
All the attempts to manually control a kite on a passagemaking boat are premature dreams, nothing else. These people have never been sailing for longer than a few hours (if that long).

cheers
Richard

[sigurd]

What debate? Which possibilities is it that you mentioned a dozen times, I must have missed it.
I was mentioning how I would go about electronic control of the kite - hands off, cheapish and light.

If I had no knowledge of or access to electronics then surely a purely mechanical system could be devised.

If a weight is added to the corner of a normal kite it can hold its position in the sky if the winds are consistent.

Controlling the kite manually does not have to be very laborious so if anybody wanted they would not need more than 3-4 shifts of one crew each for a reasonable working day.

Ive been sailing a few regattas going over more than 24hr and been working on fishing boats and factories with 24hr+ shifts (overtime ofcourse), and also have kited a fair amount on snow and I have got two small kiteboats.

If you haven't kited, and believe it is too strenous for long passes, check out those who went kiting across greenland s to n IIRC - mad daily averages that could only have been done by many hours of high speed kite-skiing (with sleds) each day. Normal schoolkids, no super egos or olympic aspirations far as I could tell.

Not only would it (passagemaking while manually controlling a kite) be possible, it would not even be unreasonable - if one had the inclination.
I would rather try to make a proper autopilot for it.

[apex1]

There have been many threads and posts in the past few years here mentioning a kite as a alternative "coming home" propulsion, especially on passagemaking motor boats. A very promising and "clean" solution, no doubt. Every single time we had that topic someone came up with the idea of making it as cheap as possible by controlling the kite manually. Not a single one of these people has been a seasoned sailor on long passages!
The typical passagemaking boat is manned by a couple, thats it! Going watch over extended periods is a burden when nothing but steering the vessel, looking out, and controlling the systems is the duty. Handling sails is already a additional effort which usually is avoided until both hands are "on deck" (when we talk sailing boats). The manual controlling of a kite is NOT POSSIBLE on long legs. Fatigue is one of the reasons, and a quite important one. Steering the boat AND the kite with just two hands another.
Skysails has a very good and professionally done system. We just have to wait until the prices come down. Of course if one can make his own "black box" control system that might be a good solution for him.
Not to get me wrong, I´m a advocat of such systems since more than a decade, but I know what one can bear on passages and what is too much of a workload to be sensible.

Regards
Richard

[brian eiland]

I found this interview in a recent issue of Sea Horse Magazine. They are speaking with Gino Morelli of Melvin/Morrelli Design



SeaHorseMag: You’re given a clean sheet of paper and asked to design your ultimate multihull...

GinoMorrelli: For me right now it would be a powercat! My personal solution is into powerboats due in part to the fact that I have a wife, kids, a business and a schedule. Sailing is now a luxury I can’t really afford. But if I could guarantee I could go 18-20 kts anywhere any time with a sailboat, then I could almost live a life afloat.

The one thing I can see coming is what could be called the SUV of sailing. There are a lot of cool things going on with drives right now. The aim is to retract, remove, or eliminate the drive when we don’t need it. The problem we currently face is that if we put the right engine in to go 20kts, then the hull shape is wrong. That’s led to tough compromises, but if we can make the power plants lighter, and get rid of the drag of propulsion when we’re under sail, then I can see us ending up with a 20kt boat… it will do 20kt under sail, 20kt under power, and it’s going to be fairly user-friendly all the time.

I also like the thought of kite sails I think ultimately that’s a way to be able to get a high-power low-risk sail plan. The trick is going to be making it auto-pilotable. There’s a bunch of guys working on it, in fact we’re scheduled to test one on one of out Leopard 47 production boats that we’ll soon be delivering from the builders in Cape Town to Tortola. The Moorings is auditioning a couple of guys to build a kite to help reduce fuel costs for their deliveries so we have been fooling around with some of those guys, trying to figure out how we can make this happen and stick it on autopilot. The pilot would control the angle of attack and let us fly the kite day and night

Plus you need to have a simple launch and recovery system... There are some bizarre kite guys out there fooling around with some different designs that have promise. It's just a matter of getting some funding for them so they can build prototypes. The shipping industry is actually pushing the limit of kites a little faster than the recreational side, so we may see some of this development come out of the shipping industry because they have a lot of reasons to get some power out of the wind.
________________________________________________________

SeaHorseMag: And what about your pure performance multihulls.

GinoMorrelli: From here on it’s going to be a horses-for-courses thing. If you’re looking at the next generation of multi to break the round-the-world record as opposed to a single-handed transatlantic, then obviously Hydroptère is where you should look. It’s opening up a giant crack and showing us that it you can spend enough money and are diligent enough then you’re on your way. They are going to get that thing to stay together one of these days, and it’s going to break the 24-hour record and the Atlantic record. And there are some dudes telling you that thing could go round the world one of these days — if you have enough time and money to develop it, foils are definitely the way to go.. it’s an instant turbo. We’re still not sure what exactly that boat’s gonna be — a foil-borne biplane cat or tri, or a foil-borne, wingmasted, tilted bi-plane ‘thing’.

I also have these crazy visions of a big foil-borne, kite-driven, ultra-light three person boat. That’s where the programming and the software for the autopilot for the kite come into play. It’s where you set a ginormous kite then tell it never to develop more than 20,000lb lift. You’d probably control it by just making it drive at a different angle of attack. It’s gonna happen

[apex1]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I also like the thought of kite sails I think ultimately that’s a way to be able to get a high-power low-risk sail plan. The trick is going to be making it auto-pilotable. There’s a bunch of guys working on it, in fact we’re scheduled to test one on one of out Leopard 47 production boats that we’ll soon be delivering from the builders in Cape Town to Tortola. The Moorings is auditioning a couple of guys to build a kite to help reduce fuel costs for their deliveries so we have been fooling around with some of those guys, trying to figure out how we can make this happen and stick it on autopilot. The pilot would control the angle of attack and let us fly the kite day and night
Plus you need to have a simple launch and recovery system... There are some bizarre kite guys out there fooling around with some different designs that have promise. It's just a matter of getting some funding for them so they can build prototypes. The shipping industry is actually pushing the limit of kites a little faster than the recreational side, so we may see some of this development come out of the shipping industry because they have a lot of reasons to get some power out of the wind.
________________________________________________________

What a arrogant (or ignorant) chap!
As if Skysails would´nt exist!

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by apex1

What a arrogant (or ignorant) chap!
As if Skysails would´nt exist!

Do you have some sort of chip on your shoulder? It's as though any efforts beyond Skysail's are bogus.

I think Gino realizes the shipping industry is persuing the technologies...ie his quote, "The shipping industry is actually pushing the limit of kites a little faster than the recreational side, so we may see some of this development come out of the shipping industry because they have a lot of reasons to get some power out of the wind."