New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

[M-Sasha]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Speaking of 'control' over those kites, have a look at the women in kite sailing...inspirational. Enjoy the video and sights
(this was brought to my attention by forum member Fanie...thanks )

And when do we stop to mix "cotrollable" and "controllable on a seagoing boat without the hassle of personal involvement in every single moment" ?????

All the statements and contributions above have had a very enjoyable part:

not sufficient for "bluewater sailing" what so ever that means.

Controllable means fit and forget, like a classical rig! If its more than that, in terms of personal involvement, it is crap.

Richard made that very clear in several of his (usually unpolite) statements.

Sasha

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by M-Sasha

..Controllable means fit and forget, like a classical rig! If its more than that, in terms of personal involvement, it is crap.
Sasha

So I guess you greeted those 'new multihull vessels' that appeared on the scene a number of years ago with that same open mindness and future vision.

[apex1]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

So I guess you greeted those 'new multihull vessels' that appeared on the scene a number of years ago with that same open mindness and future vision.

That was at least off topic, if not to say unpolite! Open mind and knowledge go very often hand in hand.

And the statement was absolutely valid, what do you believe is "controllable" at the open seas? Your dreams? A kite that is held in your hands? How long is a watch? And how long is a watchkeeper able to control a boats propulsion?
You should be a bit more serious if it comes to new tech! Not everyone (btw) is a absolute novice in multihulls. Alexander (Sasha) was one of the most experienced multi sailors in the former USSR.

Your "future vision" Brian is quite often just a copy and paste vision, sorry! >>>>not very sorry<<<<

Kindest
regards
Richard

[brian eiland]

Richard, I've been involved with multihull development almost since its inception. And I heard that word 'crap' thrown around many times when the author was least informed about a subject matter. So when someone throws that word out now I get a little defensive.

If you bother to go and read the links I offer about the SkySail technology, you would realize that I have much more respect for this technology to actually become reality on open ocean vessels.

The numerous links to recreational kite sailing are hipe. But on the other hand they are developmental platforms that spur futher development. They demonstrate the power in kites, and the potential for controlling it.

Speaking of control, we've developed an auto-pilot that is able to allow this one man to control a 60 footer in some rather heavy weather.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIuGoT7WoKc
Surely we will gain control of these kites to propel our ships

[apex1]

Surely we will gain control of these kites to propel our ships

I agree Brian, we will!
Skysails has already.

[eponodyne]

I think there's a disconnect here, in that some of us are talking about using kites as propulsion-assist on VLCCs or trawlers and some are wondering how a kite could possibly be useful for bluewater passagemaking, and some chit-chat about using kiteboard rigs for daysailers. It seems to me that the answer is simple: Different rigs for different applications.

In the last days of working sail--let's say 1850 to WWI-- the variety of rigs carried by different vessels was simply staggering. This was not, however, some chaotic gallimaufry of canvas and spars: The needs of a couta boat were different to what was needed on the Thames was different to what was needed on the Shanghai tea run. Rigs evolved to be a good fit for their prevailing conditions: There's a reason you don't see barquentines in the America's cup, and why the Flying Cloud didn't have a single small standing lug.

There is no one single right answer. I am confident, however, that since there's a mint of money to be made by bringing kites to market, the private sector will move quickly to fill the needs. I don't believe we would be having this discussion in 10 years' time, much less 20.

[sigurd]

diverdon: "From my child hood kite flying it always seemed that the hard thing to do was to get the kite properly launched through the still or gusty air near the surface. I have to imaging that even with these kits launching them can be a problem. There must be many occasions where the air aloft would be suitable for use but the kite is not used because the launch or recovery conditions are difficult."

sigurd: If there is little wind, the engine can assist the launch by propelling against the wind.

masalai: "For recreational sailing craft - a fun toy but difficult to control on cruising yachts as the "para-sail" is usually flown in a figure 8 pattern to maximise performance, particularly more-so if seeking a bit more upwind benefit..."

Sigurd: Flying dynamically robs the system L/D. So for pointing, no. In light wind, maybe.

Tad: "I believe the kite has 4-5 control lines. In a big heavy cruising boat these lines are under high load at times. These lines must be long, and quickly and infinitely adjustable. This means a bunch of captive reel winches (heavy, complex, expensive) run by a computer."

Sigurd: Two lines for control, one or two for power. All four can go on the same reel, then you need two mechanical actuators in addition to the reel. Range for these (linear?) actuators are about half a meter (on kitesurf size kites) unless block purchase is used.

Fanie: "I was under the impression it had four lines, and I asked him a couple of nights ago, but he says no, it only has two lines, similar to the Peter Lynn's
kites."

Sigurd: PL traction kites have four lines.

Fanie: "The only unknown is when the wind dies down or when you encounter a change in wind direction. A radical change in wind would bugger the kite up for sure, which may require retreival and untangling. Would probably happen at night and under the worst of conditions too "

Sigurd: Yes, absolutely, this is the shite. Whether the kite is likely to tangle when dropped is depending on the model of kite.
Pulling in the lines in such lulls would be helpful.

[sigurd]

Just came down from the snow dunes of Hardangervidda playing with my new Flysurfer Speed 2 10m and a little review:

My former kites were all Peter Lynn Phantoms, these are ARC ram air closed cell kites. Only four lines all the way to the kite, like many inflated kites (tube kites), unlike the FS which have an intricate bridle like a paraglider. The phantoms are out of prod. but were the most efficient PL's mass produced AFAIK, due to the high aspect ratio. Due to the lack of bridle, tangles are nothing compared to the FS, when it happens.

Both are water relauncheable, so suitable for boats. The FS has a lot higher CL, means much more power per area. In the snow it is useable from almost walking pace wind. Phantoms require more.
Have not met FS top end yet, but the depower is quite astounding. It comes in a lighter fabric as well as the standard, making it even better for light winds.

Much more powerful than phantom 12 and steers quicker. Much more direct throttle - a two edged sword, since the mushyness of the Ph. is part of what makes it so great in gusts - it eats them and gives the rider a safer feeling. FS is more prone to luffing/overflying and collapsing at the edge of the wind window, in slight wind changes. It requires much more attention than the Ph. The Ph, as will most the arcs, will fly to zenith if you let go the control bar - nice feature for chatting or smoking, cutting hole in the ice for a drink etc.

The safety release to one line of the Ph is very safe and nice, it will go to ground like a flag and pull very little.

On four lines the safety release and landing system of the FS is inadequate, IMO. It will flog around like a bat (out of hell) on a string and make a terrible mess, if there is much wind. The pull can meanwhile be on the border of too much for retrieving the kite unless you have an achor point for it and can walk down to the kite. There is a fifth line system for this kite that I want to try, said to make a better release system.

Both has one way valves in the leading edge to make them suitable for water.
The FS has overpressure valves to protect it when crashing. I have blown a cell in the phantom 6 when crashing, earlier.
Both seem rugged and well built, ARCs have short sticks at the tips.

To extrapolate this to kite sailing, I believe these are both superb for that. The phantoms are much easier to fly, but will require acres of kite for a big boat. Probably the newer, lower aspect PL synergy is even easier to fly, has more power to to the area, more guaranteed water relaunch and may have a similar depower. As I see it upwind power is a major issue for kite boats - the phantom 12 is like nothing compared to an 8sqm una-rig - upwind.

Side note, the jumps with the speed2 is just frackin amaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiizing.

[Hacklebellyfin]

In 1995, Nicole Van de Kerchove crosses the South Atlantic in solo on board a hull of sailing ship tractor-drawn by Kite(s)
functioning only in the axis of the wind. A system which makes it possible to sail in the trade winds, but only in rear.

[eponodyne]

The way she did it certainly worked for her. In my eye, though, her boat looks more like an escape pod than a sailboat, though. It's way too heavy and the pull of the kite is coming from too far above the waterline to take advantage of leeward pull to eliminate heeling.

Still, the fact remains--she did it, and has a lot more to say on the subject of deepwater cruising with kitesail than I am likely to ever learn.

[Hacklebellyfin]

The boat wasn't a pod it was a unmasted sailboat a jod24.
Unfortunately we could not hear from her anymore because she died the 21 st of February 2008 in Patagonia on the island of Navarino.

Rest in Peace Kitesailingwomen.

[dump-box]

first, bow kites, "c" kites are practically self launching and unlike my sails, don't becomed waterlogged. As for skysail's tech, ok what exactly does the computer actually do/ pull lines in or out to turn the kite (btw power kites like skysail are a b!tch to control by comparison to a bow kite). thats all it takes to control a kite, in and out - not around like a wheel. Your telling me that i couldn't use a simple mechanical wheel and drum /spindle to control the in and out action on a kite with a simple wheel. Seems like thats how squares controled the rudder/tiller 300 yrs ago. Tending to a kite during launch is the hard part. Once launched, a bow kite can be "parked" into the wind, where it needs slight finger tension to control (see playing the paino technique). Tending to a kite seems just like tending to my jib to me. As for rudder, simple, just like a plane, rudder pedals. To launch a kite, on a boat, use the motor. And to control the power on a bow kite, the "5th" line is used to change the angle of attack to power or de-power the kite. You don't need to tend to a kite every second. We didn't need a computer to control a nike/ajax missle into another missle, it was electro-mechanical and analog. Heres a real sificated ide-r, how bout pots to control the linear actuators needed to keep a kite in power.....seems pretty simple to me. I've been running some simulators with a kiteboat at home, and I can say that you definately need keels to keep it on track when tracking upwind, and i found that attaching the kite just slightly aft of the cg seems to work better then on the bow in tractor mode.

[apex1]

And on a long passage you do that controlling by fingertips, yes? Like playing a piano?
Thats a idea out of the dump-box, for sure.

[eponodyne]

Originally Posted by dump-box

first, bow kites, "c" kites are practically self launching and unlike my sail [snip, good post]found that attaching the kite just slightly aft of the cg seems to work better then on the bow in tractor mode.

Care to post yer thoughts here? Do you have pictures of your models?

[brian eiland]

Interesting posting this morning on what might be termed an economy model cruising tri-hull configuration powered craft with an aux lateen sail in place of a kite.

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/84017-post66.html

..similar theme

...but this one can be shipped to its cruising ground rather than getting there on its own bottom.