New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht

[brian eiland]

Yes Peter,
Take note that in my original posting #1, quote "Light-weight construction would be desirable but not necessary. Third world hull construction materials are a possibility."

I was hinting at saturated wood epoxy, and/or cold molding wood constructions, as opposed to hi-tech sandwich composites.

[masalai]

brian eiland, Thanks for the link, a very interesting project (a bit whimsical?) but one worthy of bookmarking and following exery-so-often.... I would like to see one that sailed "directly downwind" till it bumped into something then reverses to sail directly up-wind till it bumped into something again, but travelled quite slowly?

[diverdon]

I have always been a power boater so I know little in regard to sailing so please forgive me if my suggestion seems either dumb or self serving. (It is defiantly self serving because I am one of the owners of the company that manufactures the product I am going to ask you to look at)

From my child hood kite flying it always seemed that the hard thing to do was to get the kite properly launched through the still or gusty air near the surface. I have to imaging that even with these kits launching them can be a problem. There must be many occasions where the air aloft would be suitable for use but the kite is not used because the launch or recovery conditions are difficult.

http://www.buffaloturbine.com/hydraulic.htm I make a turbine blower which can produce a controllable, variable, steerable air stream of up to 185MPH at 10,500 CFM. I wonder how useful a device like this would be in launching or recovering a kite.

[masalai]

nice try, but on a recreational boat not justifiable on cost or weight or extra energy requirements, there are several threads on using "kite" systems on recreational and large commercial vessels - the larger cargo boats have semi-automatic launch and retrieval and use when conditions are favourable - control systems are rather complex...

For recreational sailing craft - a fun toy but difficult to control on cruising yachts as the "para-sail" is usually flown in a figure 8 pattern to maximise performance, particularly more-so if seeking a bit more upwind benefit...

Your product could be great fun as a promotional gimmick - holding a large beach ball aloft to attract attention... - PS do not do that again as "free advertising/promotion" is frowned upon

[brian eiland]

Hey Masalai,
I wouldn't be so quick to blow this idea off. It's entirely possible that some sort of directed airstream might be very helpful with the initial filling of the kite itself and the launching of it in certain conditions...maybe not a system as strong as Diverdon suggest, but lets not discourage new thought processes here.

[masalai]

OK, but I still feel there are issues for recreational use, as with automatic systems controls.... (to satisfy my needs - that is), but I did not intend to detract from any potential, just I do not see it yet...

[diverdon]

Masalai, I have been reading these forums a long time and generally things seem pretty civil compared to a couple of other forums I am on. I posted this because I thought the idea might be of some interest to some people. If it is not practical in your application then you should not use it.

I thought that it would be better to disclose my interest in the manufacture up front rather than let the idea "gain traction" then be found out later and accused of shameless self promotion. Still I found your comment "- PS do not do that again as "free advertising/promotion" is frowned upon " rather stinging.

I clicked on your name and I do not see that you are any kind of a moderator, or a owner of this board. So this leaves me to wonder what is your grounds for telling me what I may or may not post? What authority do you have in this matter?

With that said, I can certainly appreciate that a blower like mine is not useful to you for all the reasons you mentioned, you may not need it, the installation cost may be to high for you, the weight/size may be to much for your craft. Indeed I do not question you on any of those issues.

Brian, thank you for your comment:

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Hey Masalai,
I wouldn't be so quick to blow this idea off. It's entirely possible that some sort of directed airstream might be very helpful with the initial filling of the kite itself and the launching of it in certain conditions...maybe not a system as strong as Diverdon suggest, but lets not discourage new thought processes here.

In my initial post I tried to describe the maximum strength of my blower I also stated that it is "controllable, variable, steerable" thus with my unit you could use the wireless remote to control the velocity and direction of the air stream. At the risk of angering Malasai I make both gasoline, diesel, electric, PTO and hydraulic powered units. But, the wireless remote throttle currently is only available for the engine powered units. Of course with any unit the power is under control of the user. The user would have to consider the best power source to use in his individual application. If hydraulic or electric then he might wish to place a control valve or rheostat in a location convenient to the user. Regarding the amount of hydraulic power required it takes about a 20 HP input to get the volume and pressure required to make a 185MPH at 10,500 CFM, so if you think your requirement would be less than that you may be able to get away with 5-10HP.

Brian should you desire to give this any further thought I do have a stocking dealer not far from you.

G.L. Cornell Company

16031 Industrial Drive

Gaithersburg, MD 20898-7995

800 492 1373 x 3034

Attn: Bill Brown


Anyone else who like Masalai is offended by my shameless self promotion (as well as any moderators who might be considering my posting to be spam) may be happier considering the cheap copy of the Buffalo Turbine blower made by Toro http://www.toro.com/grounds/utility/debris/index.html

[masalai]

diverdon, - - It is all in the name of self preservation,
1) - -There are those who delightedly engage in a feeding frenzy of retribution at anyone who dares to "advertise" without paying homage to Jeff the moderator /owner?
2) - - I have had a couple of threads pulled because the "self-righteous" got upset at allowing "free speech" as in expression of a point of view, and many enjoyed (by virtue of the rapidly growing number of "views") - namely "drivel" and "Global economics and politics (witchcraft and lies)"
3) - - Being a long term reader, I would have presumed that these aspects of "internal politics" would not have been unfamiliar...
4) - - As an active and interested member with diverse interests (I am building), feel encumbered to assist Jeff occasionally....

My apologies if you felt put-out - that was not my intention - but to discourage the prospect of a flame war on an interesting thread ...

My best wishes to you all...

[eponodyne]

Masalai,

Thanks for posting that. It always helps to clear the air a little.

I think that it might help, when talking about kite-assist technologies, to define what size and class of vessels we're discussing. What a VLCC or Panamax freighter needs is a lot different to what a dinghy sailor could use, and that's different to what a blue-water cruiser might need.

I don't know much about the Skysails developments-- not many here besides Dave Culp do, I'd wager; but I have been flying controllable kites for years, kiteboard frequently, and have a pretty good grasp on what's involved with the consumer-level kites on the market these days.

First, the idea that they're "uncontrollable:" the whole point of control lines is to control the kite, and they do this with aplomb and efficiency. Even a behemoth like the Flysurf 19 sq m is easily made to do what you want it to, for a very simple reason: You don't steer the kite by sheeting in against the pull, you steer it by dumping lift off the side toward which you want the kite to go. Easing lines, not sheeting in. It doesn't take much, either-- a nudge of that side of the bar toward the kite, wait a second or two, then another nudge on the other side of the bar.

Second, that they must be kept flying by waving them all over half creation: Well, kind of. These kites were designed to pull surfers around over waves, and as such, some of them aren't terribly stable. So, yes, those kites need to be constantly tended. But more and more kites are being made so they're stable in flight--Peter Lynn's Scorpion series actually will auto-zenith, which is to say they will return to a stable overhead position absent any other input. Many other kites, especially the flatter-cut "Bow" kites, will happily hold a "park and ride" postion, where you hang the kite somewhere and it just... stays there. Airflow and lift and drag and everything balance out. On a board, this requires very minimal attention, probably because of the scant mass of the vessel. On a larger boat, it would be interesting to see if this workload would be reduced, and I think it would. Anyway, for a daysailor, isn't half the fun pulling on the bits of string?

Third, the idea that kites can't work upwind. Well, if that's true, then planes can't climb to altitude. These aren't simple bags to capture the wind we're talking about here-- these are complicated wing assemblies that happen to be made out of cloth. The leading edges are often inflated (which provides support and shape) making them water-relaunchable in the process. Now, I think the jury's still out on just how far upwind a kite can work, but I know for a stone fact I and my kiteboard rig can point higher and work upwind faster than the ubiquitous Hobie 16. I know this because I won $50 in a bet last summer doing just that.

Fourth, the expense. These kites don't cost any more than a comparable sail of similar quality; figure about $1-1.5K USD for a decently sized (10-12 sq. m)kite from a reputable manufacturer. Usually comes complete with Spectra or Dyneema lines and a control bar.


I think kites are the future, I've said so before on this forum and even upthread in this very discussion, at least for daysailors. No masts, no chainplates, no shrouds, no backstays, no vangs, booms, spars of any kind. Four or five lines, and no need for Harken blocks anywhere. No halyards tapping the mast at anchor. No overengineering the hull to support the loads delivered by a tradtional sail and mast. No ballast needed to keep the boat on her feet. Easy to use. Safe for children.

[masalai]

eponodyne, Watching board-sailors have fun is small choppy inshore shallows, is what got my original interest in thinking of same for cruising cat... You will notice that most cruisers drink coffee or other stuff during the leg - - autopilot steers, and the sails are set - - so unless there is a reason to change course because of wind or another boat etc, enjoying the sail...

Those folk on sail-boards seem to not only be working the sail but their arms are automatic shock-absorbers between a "steady force" of the sail and the pumping of the "boat" over the waves - I do mot propose to shackle a "deck-ape" to the hitching point to perform the shock-absorber function...

On some legs kites/parachutes perform adequately, and it will take a lot of beating to replace my "hitch-hiker" rig - which is basically a pair of large genoas on furler/reefing lines to each bow from the normally positioned (maybe slightly cantered aft) mast and a forward cockpit for sail-handling. This leaves my bridgedeck roof free for placement of solar PV panels - another cruising need for live-aboard comfort and independence...

Originally Posted by eponodyne

There are some more that know this development pretty good. look here:

get home kite sail

almost everything is said there. Focussed more on coastal and blue water sailing though.

It would be interesting to know how one would be steering the boat (not a nutshell) and contolling the kite. As a proper propulsion for average joe on a "real" boat you cannot substitute the electronic control like Skysails.

Period

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by eponodyne

Video showing stability of a Peter Lynn kite.

This is promising, my experience with traction kites is that they have to--have to-- be flown all the time. Apparently the model shown is water-relaunchable as well.

Hmmmmm.

Peter Lynn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSWfi5AMT2E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh8GIZ7SmAc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe_kP-nEgYs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw3Di0v96YE

[brian eiland]

http://www.peterlynnkites.com/vehicles/vehicles.htm

[Guillermo]

Brian,
those Peter Lynn's kites seem to be pretty stable, but would you rely on them as to fly them at night when cruising?

Cheers.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Brian,
those Peter Lynn's kites seem to be pretty stable, but would you rely on them as to fly them at night when cruising?

I don't truly know at this stage, Guillermo, but I did find this quote interesting.

Originally Posted by eponodyne

...
First, the idea that they're "uncontrollable:" the whole point of control lines is to control the kite, and they do this with aplomb and efficiency. Even a behemoth like the Flysurf 19 sq m is easily made to do what you want it to, for a very simple reason: You don't steer the kite by sheeting in against the pull, you steer it by dumping lift off the side toward which you want the kite to go. Easing lines, not sheeting in. It doesn't take much, either-- a nudge of that side of the bar toward the kite, wait a second or two, then another nudge on the other side of the bar.


Fourth, the expense. These kites don't cost any more than a comparable sail of similar quality; figure about $1-1.5K USD for a decently sized (10-12 sq. m)kite from a reputable manufacturer. Usually comes complete with Spectra or Dyneema lines and a control bar.


I think kites are the future, I've said so before on this forum and even upthread in this very discussion, at least for daysailors. No masts, no chainplates, no shrouds, no backstays, no vangs, booms, spars of any kind. Four or five lines, and no need for Harken blocks anywhere. No halyards tapping the mast at anchor. No overengineering the hull to support the loads delivered by a tradtional sail and mast. No ballast needed to keep the boat on her feet. Easy to use. Safe for children.

So it doesn't sound as though it would be that much more difficult to build the 'electronic control unit' for the "easing lines" than to build a good electronic autopilot??