Need Real Life, In Person Help (will compensate experts $$)

[CatBuilder]

I need the assistance of someone who has experience in foam/glass construction ANYWHERE on the East Coast of the USA to 200 miles inland. I'll come to you! I'll pay you $$, buy you beer, food, whatever...

I have my plans and they have plenty of confusing points. The designer is only partially available and doesn't really go into the detail I need to develop a full understanding of the project, from start to finish.

I need someone to spend 3 hours or so with me looking at the plans and developing a construction strategy.

I have Bilideou's Corecell manual now. Makes sense.

However, there are differences in my boat's plans vs. the type of boats Bilideou was building. I need someone to look my plans over with me and answer a million "how do I?" questions regarding building.

I understand the basics, but some things have thrown me:

1) I don't appear to have a traditional hull/deck joint. It's a radius in the hull at the extreme topsides that curves all the way up and around, in a 90 degree bend, until you join this to the deck flat. So... instead of this:



Instead of what's shown in this picture, I have a radius. No sheer timber or "high density core", just a curve.

VERY hard to explain, but I could easily show someone with the plans.

Can *anyone* who knows how to build foam/glass boats take a few hours to meet with me on the East Coast, anywhere from Boston to Fort Lauderdale to 200 miles inland?

I really need some basic pointers that have to do with my plans, specifically, and how to properly handle odd things like that hull/deck joint.

I would post images up here and do it all online, but I'm afraid that will compromise my designer's plans. I don't want to put his work out there for everyone to steal.

Anyone?

[Milan]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

… 1) I don't appear to have a traditional hull/deck joint. It's a radius in the hull at the extreme topsides that curves all the way up and around, in a 90 degree bend, until you join this to the deck flat …

Is it maybe similar to the current Farrier building method, where hull parts are joined in the middle, not on the hull / deck?

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/construction/index.html

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by Milan

Is it maybe similar to the current Farrier building method, where hull parts are joined in the middle, not on the hull / deck?

http://www.f-boat.com/pages/construction/index.html

Yes, it is exactly the same as the Farrier method in the link.

This is how the designer suggests to build the boat - exactly as in the Farrier link.

Problem is: I have been trying to see how to build it on a male mold (Bilodeau style) so I can easily roll the hull over as 1 person and do the layups as 1 person. I cannot see how to move a half a hull out of a female mold by myself as easily as rolling over the complete hull from a male mold.

[Milan]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

… Problem is … easily roll the hull over as 1 person …

But help for rolling the hull is needed just for the few hours, after that you can continue alone?

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by Milan

But help for rolling the hull is needed just for the few hours, after that you can continue alone?

I may have typed that incorrectly.

I mean building a male mold makes it easier to handle the hull which was one of the main problems with my last build attempt.

Handling "half hulls" from a female mold, in a tent (no crane) and trying to get them to line up for joining is a nightmare.

This is why a male mold is easier for me.

[Stumble]

Cat,

I would suggest finding a different design. Having a designer who won't work with you at the start of the project seems like a huge problem down the road if anything goes wrong.

[rxcomposite]

Cat,

Designers are like that. They don't get involved in the build stage unless you pay them extra. Even marine engineering firms likeours will charge you extra for every bit of information that you like outside of what has been areed on. It is standard business practice so don't feel so bad.

See Chapter 3 "Deck Edge Connection of Marine Composites". Here are some deck to hull joints from PB.

[rxcomposite]

Here is some more from Lloyds. Good thing I am not workng tommorow. Now where is my Beer?

[rxcomposite]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Problem is: I have been trying to see how to build it on a male mold (Bilodeau style) so I can easily roll the hull over as 1 person and do the layups as 1 person. I cannot see how to move a half a hull out of a female mold by myself as easily as rolling over the complete hull from a male mold.

From experience, you need at least 4-5 persons to demold it, lift it and turn it over. about 2 to 3 hours extra help. You need also to build/rent the lifting bar we discussed in previous thread.

You need at least one assistant in the layup to hold the cloth as it is 45 feet long.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

1) I don't appear to have a traditional hull/deck joint. It's a radius in the hull at the extreme topsides that curves all the way up and around, in a 90 degree bend, until you join this to the deck flat.....
I have a radius. No sheer timber or "high density core", just a curve.

Look here http://www.saunalahti.fi/~pekkajlh/boat/Oct02.htm (and the previous pictures).. You just put the bulkheads and new molding for the deck in place and continue with foam strips. Fairing and triax over..

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by rxcomposite

From experience, you need at least 4-5 persons to demold it, lift it and turn it over. about 2 to 3 hours extra help..

There's no need for demolding just turning the whole setup together. The mold has to be "reassembled" as a mirror anyway for the second hull so no need to demold it in one piece..

[rxcomposite]

Cat,

Here are the list of drawings normally required. The ones marked with asterisk are required by Class. The ones in brackets are my explanation of what it should cover, the best I can remember. The ones in bold letters are what you probably have.

Even if these drawings are for class, you need to become familiar with what you need to ask the "consultant" so you will be guided accordingly.

* General arrangement showing (multiple) deck arrangement (with ships particulars noted on the right uppermost column)
* Profile or Interior plan (sectional view arrangement)
* Capacity plan (tanks, liquids, cargo)
* Lines plan or equivalent (station plan or offsets)
* Midship section showing longitudinal and transverse arrangement and material
* Deck hatches (construction, attachment, and sealing details)
* Bridging structure (arrangement, stiffening details- supported by lamination schedules and primary and secondary stiffener, stanchion, drawings)
* Shell expansion (for metal ships, sometimes needed for composite boats for calculation of material list))
* Laminate schedule-(showing material description, manufacturer’s code optional, sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness broken down into keel, bottom, sides, deck, stem, extent of reinforcement)
Primary and secondary stiffeners drawing (showing dimensions, tabbing schedules, ply orientation, core material, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness). Includes bracketing details.
* Deckhouses and superstructures (supported by lamination and stiffening details, window plate thicknesses and attachment details)
Deck to Hull connection (shows method of connection, reinforcing details, hold down details (bolt or rivet spacing), gunwales, rub rails)
* Outfit and watertight bulkheads (non penetrating attachment details-(hawse pipes, railings) and watertight bulkheads construction details such as ply sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness, connection details)
* Hull Penetration plans (shows location, dimensions, reinforcing details, method of attachment)
* Propeller brackets Propeller strut (material, dimension, method of attachment, reinforcement, sealing, bearing details and fixicity)
Drainage plan- Location of limber holes and construction, flow diagram, includes anchor and rope locker bailing arrangement, scuppers, vertical stiffeners)
* Integral tanks (material use, arrangement, method of construction, wall thickness, subdivisions, drain system, filling port, level sensing detail, distance to uppermost vent, anti static connection)
* Pillars and girders- (Pillar physical dimensions, material, method of attachment, reinforcement)

* Engine room construction- (engine vent, engine room exhaust, engine exhaust details, thru hull connection if any, water trap and drain, emergency closure)
Battery room compartment- (location, encasement, holdown method, venting details)
* Engine and thrust bearing seating (engine bed details, thrust bearing support, hull bearing details and connection to engine bed girder)

* Fore end construction (generally includes stem,collision bulkhead up to chain locker)
* Doors, hatches, winches and portlights (includes both watertight and non watertight, location, attachment method, reinforcing, sill or freeboard height, sealing arrangement, opening arrangement, bolt spacing.
* Aft end construction (generally includes transom, steering room up to sternframe)
* Rudder, stock, and tiller (details of rudder stock dimension, material, and rudder leaf construction)

Propeller stock (material property, dimensions, bearing and spacing, connection to engine or transmission)
* Equipment (this varies from a simple equipment list and location or expanded version including FIFI and LSA)

* Support structure for mast, derrick post or crane (mast step details, deck openings and collar, reinforcing details. Derrick includes attachment and support structure details)
* Bilge keels (or daggerboard showing connections and detail design)
* Chainplates (if integral composite- material description, manufacturer’s code optional, sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness, direction and magnitude of load, location, support structure)

* Dry docking plan (dimension of docking blocks, placement. Method of lifting (cradle or belt), width, length, and strength of straps, spacing and location, spreader bar dimension)
* Towing or mooring arrangements (tow rope, cleats, bollards, anchor rope or chain)
* Sail/Rigging plan, indicating loadings (sailing craft)

Electrical plan (single line diagram)
Plumbing diagram (single line diagram fresh water, bilge water (oily water), cooling water, sea water, black water and gray water system)

Rx

[AndrewK]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Yes, it is exactly the same as the Farrier method in the link.

This is how the designer suggests to build the boat - exactly as in the Farrier link.

Problem is: I have been trying to see how to build it on a male mold (Bilodeau style) so I can easily roll the hull over as 1 person and do the layups as 1 person. I cannot see how to move a half a hull out of a female mold by myself as easily as rolling over the complete hull from a male mold.

I am starting to repeat my self, having built both ways the half hull approach for single operator is easier to plank, easier to laminate, easier to pull out of the mold, piece of cake to align and join the hulls.

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by AndrewK

I am starting to repeat my self, having built both ways the half hull approach for single operator is easier to plank, easier to laminate, easier to pull out of the mold, piece of cake to align and join the hulls.

So do you not think it's difficult to take the half-hull and bulkheads out of the mold, move it aside somewhere, then re-arrange the molds to make the other half of the hull? Also, then to join the two halves together?

My thought is it would be easier to never move the hull while working on it, then roll it over while still in a frame and put bulkheads and a deck on.

I guess it's 6 of one, half a dozen of another though, but I don't want to move hulls around. That's what I found to be most difficult last time.

[CatBuilder]

I have nearly all of these sheets.

Also, I'm really only after the hull and rig dimensions here because I am well versed in designing the rest of the boat systems and interior. My only weakness is in building the hull, but thanks to you and help from others, I am really starting to understand the build procedure.

Those diagrams on Excel were extremely helpful, as were the pictures from PB.

I think I've pieced it all together now. Difficult areas seem to be just planning out all the layups so they come out nice and fair and not forgetting any. Also, lifting the bridgedeck up into place seems like it'll be difficult.

Other than that, I'm still flip flopping on vacuum bagging. I know a good hand layup is good, but isn't a vacuum bag better and more of a guarantee of no "neverbonds?"

Originally Posted by rxcomposite

Cat,

Here are the list of drawings normally required. The ones marked with asterisk are required by Class. The ones in brackets are my explanation of what it should cover, the best I can remember. The ones in bold letters are what you probably have.

Even if these drawings are for class, you need to become familiar with what you need to ask the "consultant" so you will be guided accordingly.

* General arrangement showing (multiple) deck arrangement (with ships particulars noted on the right uppermost column)
* Profile or Interior plan (sectional view arrangement)
* Capacity plan (tanks, liquids, cargo)
* Lines plan or equivalent (station plan or offsets)
* Midship section showing longitudinal and transverse arrangement and material
* Deck hatches (construction, attachment, and sealing details)
* Bridging structure (arrangement, stiffening details- supported by lamination schedules and primary and secondary stiffener, stanchion, drawings)
* Shell expansion (for metal ships, sometimes needed for composite boats for calculation of material list))
* Laminate schedule-(showing material description, manufacturer’s code optional, sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness broken down into keel, bottom, sides, deck, stem, extent of reinforcement)
Primary and secondary stiffeners drawing (showing dimensions, tabbing schedules, ply orientation, core material, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness). Includes bracketing details.
* Deckhouses and superstructures (supported by lamination and stiffening details, window plate thicknesses and attachment details)
Deck to Hull connection (shows method of connection, reinforcing details, hold down details (bolt or rivet spacing), gunwales, rub rails)
* Outfit and watertight bulkheads (non penetrating attachment details-(hawse pipes, railings) and watertight bulkheads construction details such as ply sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness, connection details)
* Hull Penetration plans (shows location, dimensions, reinforcing details, method of attachment)
* Propeller brackets Propeller strut (material, dimension, method of attachment, reinforcement, sealing, bearing details and fixicity)
Drainage plan- Location of limber holes and construction, flow diagram, includes anchor and rope locker bailing arrangement, scuppers, vertical stiffeners)
* Integral tanks (material use, arrangement, method of construction, wall thickness, subdivisions, drain system, filling port, level sensing detail, distance to uppermost vent, anti static connection)
* Pillars and girders- (Pillar physical dimensions, material, method of attachment, reinforcement)

* Engine room construction- (engine vent, engine room exhaust, engine exhaust details, thru hull connection if any, water trap and drain, emergency closure)
Battery room compartment- (location, encasement, holdown method, venting details)
* Engine and thrust bearing seating (engine bed details, thrust bearing support, hull bearing details and connection to engine bed girder)

* Fore end construction (generally includes stem,collision bulkhead up to chain locker)
* Doors, hatches, winches and portlights (includes both watertight and non watertight, location, attachment method, reinforcing, sill or freeboard height, sealing arrangement, opening arrangement, bolt spacing.
* Aft end construction (generally includes transom, steering room up to sternframe)
* Rudder, stock, and tiller (details of rudder stock dimension, material, and rudder leaf construction)

Propeller stock (material property, dimensions, bearing and spacing, connection to engine or transmission)
* Equipment (this varies from a simple equipment list and location or expanded version including FIFI and LSA)

* Support structure for mast, derrick post or crane (mast step details, deck openings and collar, reinforcing details. Derrick includes attachment and support structure details)
* Bilge keels (or daggerboard showing connections and detail design)
* Chainplates (if integral composite- material description, manufacturer’s code optional, sequence, ply orientation, glass content, ply thickness, overall thickness, direction and magnitude of load, location, support structure)

* Dry docking plan (dimension of docking blocks, placement. Method of lifting (cradle or belt), width, length, and strength of straps, spacing and location, spreader bar dimension)
* Towing or mooring arrangements (tow rope, cleats, bollards, anchor rope or chain)
* Sail/Rigging plan, indicating loadings (sailing craft)

Electrical plan (single line diagram)
Plumbing diagram (single line diagram fresh water, bilge water (oily water), cooling water, sea water, black water and gray water system)

Rx