My new baby! 6.8 Meter fiber over wood fishing boat !

[Vulkyn]

Well I'm really glad i found this forum, every body is helpful and very knowledgeable!! So in advance many thanks for every one's great contribution and help!!

I'm a beginner in boat design but i fell in love with boats (recently!) and i decided to built a custom fiber glass over wood fishing boat for well fishing and mostly to gain experience in design and building!!
Now i have been studying a lot of aspects but there is so much i need to learn i thought i would get some directions from the experts!

The boat i tried is called a Shooteya (Arabic name ) and is a basic boat design that is popular in Egypt. The boat is extremely light pretty durable (some have been around for 15 years) fast and has a very little submerged area, i did notice the boat tends to role in medium waves.

My aim so to tweak that hull into a more comfortable fishing platform with out sacrificing the boats advantages, like the ability to get decent performance from a 30 HP engine as im trying to keep the budget low. The reason is that he design is basically father to son concept with out engineering design, however traditional boat builders have a very good eye or feel on how to make a good ship but to me i just want to add the extra technical part to ensure I'm getting the most out of the hull.

I have attached some pics of the boat i tried and hope this helps with the hull evaluation. I had some changes i wanted to introduce like extending keel length, and decreasing the V angle of the bottom of the boat.

The boat will be built at a ship yard but according to my design and supervision (i know but i am loving the experience!) so i want to be prepared!

If possible i just need an expert's point of view on the hull to point me in the right direction.

Again many thanks folks

[ancient kayaker]

The design of this kind of boat is not my area of knowledge.

Some things can be estimated from the images, but if you want to get some experts to help you, they will need to know more, such as length, waterline length, displacement, beam, waterline beam, draft and such like. The design has evolved for a specific purpose, knowing that purpose would help understanding its shape. If you publish these data you are more likely to attract inputs from our experts.

The bow seems very high. Perhaps the weight of material in the bow is raising the center of gravity enough to affect roll behaviour. Although rolling is induced by waves the boat's sensitivity to waves can be judged from how much it heels when you move to the side. The boat is likely to be a working design intended to carry cargo; if used for other purposes it will probably benefit from ballast.

If you can obtain the hull offsets, there are free hull design applications on the Internet such as FreeShip which will help you calculate the impact of design changes. Extending keel length may not add to performance and will not help reduce rolling, increasing beam is more likely to be of help with that.

[Squidly-Diddly]

except a Panga is a more heavily built boat.

[Vulkyn]

Indeed i was waiting for the measurments for the yard, but here goes the basic ones till i get the more detailed version!

Total length 6.8 Meters
Water line length 5.5
Width 2.3 meters

The ship is a fishing boat design, the front end is usually closed to allow for net operation. Its current usage is mainly fishing with some recreational activities due to its speed and light design.

I did download and freeship software but due to my lack of experience in CAD software and engineering its quite a challenge. I did however draw a preliminary design and im still tweaking it.

I will try to make 2 designs on free ship one with the width and one with an increased beam. Based on above figures would i do it by a certain percentage ?

Yah this design is light which also makes deploying the boat and retrieving it in shallow water a breeze! since i cant leave it at sea i have to retrieve and deploy it on daily bases.

These high bows are quite common at regions where the boats have to be beached. That makes them capable of crossing the surf / breakers relatively dry. And for the same reason they are not too heavy (although they are´nt light).

I am not sure if there are drawings for these boats, it was and is, quite common that they are built just by the experience of the builder.
But if there are plans, you can scan and import them in Freeship. Then "copy" them into the program. From that point on you can scale them within reasonable limits.
There are tutorials on this board, and some links to external tutorials as well. (use the search function of the board).

These boats are easily to adapt to a wood epoxy build. You would have to encapsulate the entire wooden structure though! That means a newbuild.

Regards
Richard

[Vulkyn]

yes you are absolutely right ! the ship in construction was laminated both sides... i believe they completely encapsulate the boat to ensure no water seeps through.

My first visit was an introduction for me, the second time around ill arm myself with as many questions and find the answers there.

The high bow also makes water splashing on the inside very little.

Just to give a figure the boat hull alone would cost 6,000 L.E which is around 600 $. The construction method is the cheapest i have found. In comparison a fiber glass boat would cost around 30,000 L.E for the same size. The fiber glass are also produced by firms rather than traditional ship builders which to me cancels the whole point of learning and customizing my design hence my enthusiasm towards the traditional ship building. This will also mean i have a large influence over the design, bigger firms do not allow me to customize my boat.
I currently do not have a work shop nor the experience for constructing the boat myself but i defiantly have this goal in the future.

No plans are available for this ship .... however i have asked the yard to compile a detailed dimension for the hull which should allow me to transfer it to free ship!

What do you mean by a new build? Does that mean the ship has to be new ?

im a noob

[Vulkyn]

The attached is the hull design but built for local fishers, notice the closed area for deploying and retrieving the net at the bow. This is also bigger 7.5 meters.

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

No plans are available for this ship .... however i have asked the yard to compile a detailed dimension for the hull which should allow me to transfer it to free ship!

Exactly what I feared!
What would you have to transfer when there is nothing on a sheet of paper? You need a lines drawing.

What do you mean by a new build? Does that mean the ship has to be new ?

im a noob

No, I mean it has to be completely new built! Just covering a existing boat, even brandnew, with epoxy and glass does´nt do the trick!
Every single piece of wood that goes into the boat has to be encapsulated BEFORE it is built in! You otherwise have "leak points" where moisture gets into the structure and does never evaporate again, thats worse than a "classical" wooden hull.

Nothing is easy in our job, you know?

Regards
Richard

[Vulkyn]

Well its not easy at all! But compared to printing its a LOT more fun
Trying to calibrate a printing machine with pre-press, color management software, inks, fountain solutions, machine setting, temp, paper, humidity etc.. is like juggling hand grenades on a bicycle, blindfolded with no brakes down a bumpy hill in a mine field !!!

Could i use the pictures i took to generate lines on a particular software ??? My wife is a graphics designer, maybe i can get her to draw on the existing pictures and generate an outline using Adobe illustrator?

Yah the boat is build from scratch and they do that at the early stage when the boat is still ribs (picture attachment in the first post). Is that what you mean?

So by encapsulation you mean epoxy ? Most of the terms i know in arabic so its gona take me some time to translate it back and forth !
I attached another picture to show the keel and bottom shape

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

Well its not easy at all! But compared to printing its a LOT more fun
Trying to calibrate a printing machine with pre-press, color management software, inks, fountain solutions, machine setting, temp, paper, humidity etc.. is like juggling hand grenades on a bicycle, blindfolded with no brakes down a bumpy hill in a mine field !!!

Hmm.. trying to convert such a boat to a good quality wood epoxy build, and getting the lines of a existing hull, would be equal fun. Just with the difference that there is someone shooting with the machine gun at you, and your hands are tied on your back.

Could i use the pictures i took to generate lines on a particular software ??? My wife is a graphics designer, maybe i can get her to draw on the existing pictures and generate an outline using Adobe illustrator?

No, that is not possible.

Yah the boat is build from scratch and they do that at the early stage when the boat is still ribs (picture attachment in the first post). Is that what you mean?

No, again, (sorry), I mean the entire way to build the boat has to be adapted, this one is not to adapt.

So by encapsulation you mean epoxy ? Most of the terms i know in arabic so its gona take me some time to translate it back and forth !

Epoxy resin is the common resin used when the fibre structure is not glass but wood. Though it is not uncommon to use it with glass too. But it is much more expensive than poly. Unfortunately poly does not work with wood. (and not good with glass either).

I attached another picture to show the keel and bottom shape

That is quite a poor built boat, you know?

Just the shape of the keel is a catastrophe, the method choosen, another, and the material is nice for grapefruit boxes, but not for a coastal going boat.

Do´nt get me wrong, I do´nt want to disappoint or discourage you, but you better take some punching now, than after spending money on a non feasible project, right?

Regards
Richard

[Vulkyn]

Thats why im here, to be the punching bag rather than the captain of a sinking boat !!

It is clear that the whole project is going to be tough .... which is why im doing it!

So keel needs a redesign, i have to teach the yard how to build it properly and i need to get wood that will be suited for a boat and i need to some how draw the boat on a 3D cad software ... did i miss anything ?

Trust me im not gona get disappointed no matter how much effort or time is needed to get this right ... i am going to do this the right way

The yard build cheap boats for fishermen who have no idea what a bilge pump is, so they are set to cater that particular segmented. If they are to build my boat a whole lot of things will have to be introduced and I'm the man for it and if that means going through several hulls to get it done then so be it and if these guys cant get the job then armed with a better understanding i can find some one else who can!

Apex keep the punches coming please

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

Thats why im here, to be the punching bag rather than the captain of a sinking boat !!

You are´nt he punching bag, no no, just the truth sometimes hurts. And we have seen too many novices getting agressive when their premature dreams found no warm welcome here.

It is clear that the whole project is going to be tough .... which is why im doing it!

A good start.

So keel needs a redesign,

No, not absolutely necessary, but it has to be straight! This is shaped like a cow pisses, and costs you fuel and speed.


i have to teach the yard how to build it properly and i need to get wood that will be suited for a boat and i need to some how draw the boat on a 3D cad software ... did i miss anything ?

Maybe one could skimp on the drawing and just start from the frames they erect. Let´s see how we get further. A proper quality lumber is the first point, a easy available epoxy resin the next. We should start to find these sources (affordable ones) first.

Trust me im not gona get disappointed no matter how much effort or time is needed to get this right ... i am going to do this the right way

The yard build cheap boats for fishermen who have no idea what a bilge pump is, so they are set to cater that particular segmented. If they are to build my boat a whole lot of things will have to be introduced and I'm the man for it and if that means going through several hulls to get it done then so be it and if these guys cant get the job then armed with a better understanding i can find some one else who can!

It must not be to go through several trial and error phases, we can do it right the first time. The major effort is to remember the proven methods and to type what we know (I mean all the experts here), and that will do the trick.

Apex keep the punches coming please

No, sorry again, that is not my job. I have to provide what I know, and I know that I do´nt know it all (but then there are others here to contradict and provide better solution or thoughts). As long as you are open to accept professional advice, you will find a endless source of knowledge here. ...for free...

Sure you are not biased, that is a good start.

edited:

Find out which sort of timber is available for cheap. Use the http://www.thewoodexplorer.com/ database to describe the wood and to find the best properties. (always refer to the latin name!!!!!!! there are 8578 sorts of "Mahogany" on the market, but only few are the real stuff)

Find out where to get Epoxy resin for a acceptable price (should be below 10 US $ a kg). "De Birs" used Epoxy in your country, should be possible to track that down.

Regards
Richard

[Vulkyn]

Many many thanks for your feedback !!

Your are right, attached is a boat that i saw and thought they did an awful job with it! (wasnt the same ship yard though but defiantly worse!)
This is a 4 month old boat! Already cracking and it takes a pretty long time to clean the water seeping through as each rib is closed acts like a small compartment which has to be cleaned individually (as i understand traditional wood construction does allow for certain amount of water but fiber should be completely sealed.) so it shouldn't be doing that!!!

The wood link is fantastic! i will have to identify the wood type used in my next trip to the yard.... i also attached a picture that i might be able to identify the wood used by comparing it to pics on the wood expert link. (is it Apple (Malus pumila)?)

The boat building time is 2 weeks for fishermen, which is in my opinion to short making blasting and smoothing (plus your comment on individual coating) far too short to get it done right.

Also i would have to make sure safety features like bilge pump is part of the design, they have no concept of safety factors :S

Thanks!!!

The frames are most likely some Shorea, Khaya or Swietana species (Mahogany), the planks look like Pine, but that is not to identify for sure in these pictures.

Yes that is a very poor quality build.

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

This is a simple shape of boat with sharp chines (the edges where the side and bottom planks meet) which is much easier to measure than a smoothly rounded hull. It does not have very specific dimensions to begin with, so it should be possible to extract the lines from photographs with enough accuracy for your purposes.

Ideally you should take the photos from above (or below), from one side, and ahead astern. The further you can get from the boat, the more accurate the images will be and all the edges must be clearly visible in each picture. Include something of known length like a meter stick in each picture for scaling.

One of the best methods to get the data you need is to shine a laser line at the side of the boat, say every 2 feet or 1/2 m, and take photos from either ahead of the bow or astern - whichever captures the entire line, which must extend from gunnel to keel. These pictures can be merged as in the attached image, which was provided by FreeShip and shows the "laser lines" which are called stations.

Since your wife is a graphics designer, she should be able to compensate for parallax errors. Hull design software typically requires the half-width (measured from the centerline, of course) and hieght (measured from an arbitrary horizontal surface) of points along the keel, chines.

Good luck!