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  #31  
Old 06-17-2010, 07:55 AM
apex1
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Unfortunately there is no such "instant Naval Architect" tutorial.

One would have to study NA to get a grip on the relations.

I am pretty able to build boats (you might look at my Gallery to see what I mean) and are experienced enough to handle several of the tools a boat designer uses, but I would NOT design (or try to) my own boat!

But we could start to scale this existing drawing to fit your needs. We then would ask our experts on design (not on drawing lines), how they would twist the hull to achieve what we have in mind.

The latter leads us to the next question:
What do we have in mind? What is YOUR SOR? Your "Statement of Requirements".....

Where did you extract your hull dimensions from, and why are they what they are?

What are the conditions that boat would be operated in? Which speed is your task? How often will the boat be used? Daytrips or short overnight trips as well? You and your spouse, or the whole football club?

Next question is building method.

Do you have access to first quality MARINE plywood? At which cost per mē?
How much is the sort of "Mahogany" shown in one of your pictures? again per mē at about 2,5cm thick (or 1in.)
How much is a pine, cedar or fir per mē (free of voids) and is it esily available.
What about Epoxy?

There is a lot to find out before we can start making any further effort towards a design!

I hope I did not disappoint you, but thats how it goes, find out the facts first.

Regards
Richard
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  #32  
Old 06-17-2010, 08:39 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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sounds very reasonable mate thx for pointing me to that direction. ill prepare more clearer info and post it !

thanks again !!
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  #33  
Old 06-17-2010, 09:07 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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Unfortunately there is no such "instant Naval Architect" tutorial.

I understand completely, i was aiming for a generalized understanding for my knowledge. For example in cars (i know very different) but there are basics categories for individual building directions, SUV's, Trucks, sport cars, family cars etc..
Although it might not apply to boats i wanted to get a grasp for general knowledge. If its too broad then no worries ill do some more reading for general knowedge.



I am pretty able to build boats (you might look at my Gallery to see what I mean) and are experienced enough to handle several of the tools a boat designer uses, but I would NOT design (or try to) my own boat!

I understand, hence i choose an existing hull to work with. There is no need to re-invent the wheel so to speak.

The latter leads us to the next question:
What do we have in mind? What is YOUR SOR? Your "Statement of Requirements".....

I am looking for a boat that can be deployed easily and retrieved as well (weight is a factor) i also wanted to boat for fishing mostly so ride comfort is important as ill spend 3-6 hrs on the boat. Speed is not a factor as most of the time ill be either trolling or dropping bait.


Where did you extract your hull dimensions from, and why are they what they are?

From the existing hull i took a trip in. They are as such due to the yards experience with boats. The reason i want to transfer it to freeship is to determine if the dimension are solid or just a given (we tried it and it worked philosophy.)


What are the conditions that boat would be operated in?

Sea water operation in the suez canal as such, the water is relatively calm (can get rough but its a canal between red sea and Mediterranean so its enclosed.)

Which speed is your task?
Mostly fishing, so speed is not a concern. The distance traveled is also close to shore (around 1 Km max)


How often will the boat be used?
Weekends mostly, due to restriction i have to deploy and remove the boat on daily bases - hence one of the reasons i liked the hull its light and easy to deploy in shallow water.

Daytrips or short overnight trips as well?
Just day trips.

You and your spouse, or the whole football club?
Just family 3-4 max and mostly for fishing.


Next question is building method.

Do you have access to first quality MARINE plywood?
Yes i do, through a friend how has good experience with getting wood for boats.


At which cost per mē?
Prices fluctuate drastically, so ill need to check on that (currently there is shortage in supply).


How much is the sort of "Mahogany" shown in one of your pictures? again per mē at about 2,5cm thick (or 1in.)
How much is a pine, cedar or fir per mē (free of voids) and is it esily available.
Need to check on that, i will be able to get these details when i visit the yard (should be with in 1 week time) !



What about Epoxy?
Available but i will need to check more on brand types and details


There is a lot to find out before we can start making any further effort towards a design!

I hope I did not disappoint you, but thats how it goes, find out the facts first.

Not at all, being blunt and straight forward is a breeze of fresh air for me ... i dont like sugar coating the facts!

many thanks for every one's help and contribution ..... !
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  #34  
Old 06-17-2010, 03:20 PM
ancient kayaker ancient kayaker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulkyn View Post
... I choose an existing hull to work with. There is no need to re-invent the wheel so to speak ...
I think that is the main point here. At this point it seems a good idea to me to revisit your original intnet from your first post ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulkyn View Post
... The boat i tried is called a Shooteya (Arabic name ) and is a basic boat design that is popular in Egypt ... I have attached some pics of the boat i tried and hope this helps with the hull evaluation. I had some changes I wanted to introduce like extending keel length, and decreasing the V angle of the bottom of the boat ...
The basic design is proven, you’ve tried one and liked it. So the next step is to get the FreeShip design as close to that as you can. That will assure you more than we can, that the design is a good one.

You can do that by using FreeShip. I would start by saving a backup copy of Richard’s file, then try to reduce the number of edges and control points to the bare minimum necessary to define the required hull shape. That makes your work of adjusting the shape as simple as possible; the less points there are the easier it is to achieve a fair shape. Don’t forget there is an Undo tool in the Edit menu!

The Perspective window can be Maximized, and you can change the viewpoint, color (I suggest you use the Shade mode) and camera lens focal length to approximate the pictures you have of the boat you want, then adjust the control net points to get as close as possible to your various pictures. The human eye is very good at matching objects and your wife’s graphic design experience can help you optimize the viewpoint parameters.

At this point you will have a design that represents the design of a Shooteya, given that these boats are not usually built from a plan. This would be another good time to save the file and copy it for further changes! FreeShip will calculate critical data such as displacement at various drafts, provide the center of floatation, and project plank developments to see if the hull can reasonably be made using flat materials such as plywood.

Finally you can experiment with the changes you wish to make, and will be able to see how these have affected the critical data noted above.

You will not have a build-to design at this point, but the material type and thickness of typical Shooteyas can be used as a guide and your builder will have experience to fall back on. You can then add weight per unit area of plank material to get the as-built weight, less frames, engine, accommodations and superstructure, and you will have to estimate the impact of these on weight and center-of-gravity.

By that time, before starting construction, it might be a godd idea to publish the design in the Power Boat forum, which may make it more visible to people with specific interest and experience in the design of such craft and may get some more inputs of value to you.

Good luck!
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"Boats are like rabbits; you can have one boat or many, but you can't stop at two" - A. Onassis
Boat designs: "a convoluted collection of discontinuous compromise" - Par
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  #35  
Old 06-17-2010, 05:01 PM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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That makes a lot of sense ... i was worried about the boat's design due to the fact that no design was drawn or followed but trial and error.
So i probably jumped too conclusion regarding tweaking and adjusting of the boat (First i need to determine if there is a need to tweak or adjust since i only took one trip and i am not experienced enough to do on the fly evaluation, i didnt want to base everything on that trip then discover i followed a bad trend).

My main objective is to ensure that the existing design will equal a comfortable boat.
I know i am trying to achieve quite a lot but for me just learning and getting directions is in itself a pleasure i enjoy.

I will revisit my thread again and make a summary so i will stay focused .... its 12 am atm and i need sleep

Thx Kayaker !!
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  #36  
Old 06-17-2010, 06:30 PM
ancient kayaker ancient kayaker is offline
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An idea I forgot to add to my last post: if you have access to the original builders, they may be able to tell you what was tried in the past and how it turned out - or even build one cheaper than a yard. Also take note of the differences between the various boats of this type, which will tell you how tolerant the basic design is to variations.
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"Boats are like rabbits; you can have one boat or many, but you can't stop at two" - A. Onassis
Boat designs: "a convoluted collection of discontinuous compromise" - Par
". . . ere the end, some work of noble note, may yet be done . . ." -Tennyson
Dances with Turkeys
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  #37  
Old 06-17-2010, 06:56 PM
capt_jack capt_jack is offline
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Keep in mind that there is a long and studied tradition among every culture of building fishing boats that killed large numbers of fisherman. The addition of decking on those boats probably has a much to do with preventing them being swamped as it does with using the nets. (Not to mention having a place to store the fish out of the sun).

I don't know if you would be able to get those same local builders to construct a different design but you might want to consider looking at some given the weak areas of the original boat.

Fishing is an industry practiced by people who are willing to risk a great deal of danger for little money in some places. The design of the boats is usually based on being affordable rather than safe. (You should see what passes for a fishing boat on the Amazon).

Traditional fishing boats from England / Ireland / Scotland are based on safer designs, largely due to a government driven initiative to make them so around 100 years ago. (They used open boats without decking prior to that).
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  #38  
Old 06-18-2010, 03:32 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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The 7th post has a picture of the fishing version of the boat with the enclosed area and net area exactly like you said with a closed area to keep the fish.

I do not understand what you mean by the weak areas of the original boat.

As i have learned the less variables you change the better the output. My original thought was to maintain the hull and shape (if proven solid via freeship and experts opinions in this forum) and tweak what is necessary.

Yes the construction yard can build pretty much any design or hull shape i want.
I called the builders and it seems that the current design has evolved mainly from feedback from fishers rather than the builders themselves. The yard gave me what ever you want we will do ideology and that worried me a since they would build with out constraints or guidelines to cover my needs rather than adhere to a static design. I am sure they do have experience (they have been building boats for 25 years) but drawing a line between good and bad practice has to be through me rather then leave it to the yard.

I talked to a fisherman yesterday who has the same boat and he said he had to give them some tweaks to make the boat more robust (he added side frames that hold the port and starboard sides to give the hull a more solid frame) - the pictures from my original post.
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  #39  
Old 06-18-2010, 03:56 AM
capt_jack capt_jack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulkyn View Post
The 7th post has a picture of the fishing version of the boat with the enclosed area and net area exactly like you said with a closed area to keep the fish.

I do not understand what you mean by the weak areas of the original boat.

As i have learned the less variables you change the better the output. My original thought was to maintain the hull and shape (if proven solid via freeship and experts opinions in this forum) and tweak what is necessary.

Yes the construction yard can build pretty much any design or hull shape i want.
I called the builders and it seems that the current design has evolved mainly from feedback from fishers rather than the builders themselves. The yard gave me what ever you want we will do ideology and that worried me a since they would build with out constraints or guidelines to cover my needs rather than adhere to a static design. I am sure they do have experience (they have been building boats for 25 years) but drawing a line between good and bad practice has to be through me rather then leave it to the yard.

I talked to a fisherman yesterday who has the same boat and he said he had to give them some tweaks to make the boat more robust (he added side frames that hold the port and starboard sides to give the hull a more solid frame) - the pictures from my original post.
As others with far more experience than I have noted the boat may have some drawbacks as far as handling rough seas - both from the shape of the hull and it's form.

My concern is that the internal bracing used in the open boat you posted photos of looked very weak.

In England, right around the time the steam engine became common the government initiated a program to survey fatalities in the fishing villages and push for improved safety in the boat designs. A storm that killed hundreds of fisherman was the catalyst if I recall correctly but the point being the fishing boats prior to that initiative shared common features with the open / no deck version of your boat.

If you do end up building her "traditional" you should strongly consider adding the decking, a pump system and only go out in fair weather and calm seas. Keep in mind that the design originated for utility and affordability, not pleasure, comfort nor safety.

Thanks for sharing. I love seeing boats from other cultures, especially those which are not so well known here in the West.
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  #40  
Old 06-18-2010, 04:30 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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The fiber over epoxy also means there is not enough buoyancy which is why i was considering either buoyancy foams or closed air tight cabinets for more safety (or even buoyancy blocks).
I also was going to installed a bilge pump as well (your are right on!)

Its also very clear that safety is not the main issue but affordability as such i need to make insure that when i build i have much higher standards of both built quality and design.

You can only do so much with the hull, so i have to take a decision to proceed with the hull (hopefully sorting out the problems along the way) or choosing a new hull / construction method that would still give me what im looking for with out it being too complex or different that what the builders do (as well as not too expensive).

Again thanks for every one's patience i know im asking a lot of questions and honestly every one has been grate and very kind so ... truly thanks folks
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  #41  
Old 06-18-2010, 06:38 AM
apex1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulkyn View Post
The fiber over epoxy also means there is not enough buoyancy
When you have the boat outfitted there will be no buoyancy left in a classical wooden built either.

That is a "fear" issue too often overestimated, and far too often asked for in the first statements.

The "unsinkable" boat is nearly impossible to achieve and it is almost senseless to try.
A seaworthy boat and good seamanship are the keyfactors not buoyancy of a destroyed structure.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by capt_jack View Post
My concern is that the internal bracing used in the open boat you posted photos of looked very weak.
They are indeed!


Quote:
If you do end up building her "traditional" you should strongly consider adding the decking, a pump system and only go out in fair weather and calm seas. Keep in mind that the design originated for utility and affordability, not pleasure, comfort nor safety.

Quite true


Always these small, local, fishing boats are first affordable, then practical, then profitable. They are nowhere around the world designed to be safe.
Of course during the centuries they were tweaked to some extend to be better then their predecessors in almost every detail, including safety.

I dare to contradict my peers here when we are talking about copying a local fishboat design.
My advice would be to build a boat for exactly the planned purpose instead! It will, to some extend, look much similar then the local boats, and if only for the purpose being beached.

Regards
Richard
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  #42  
Old 06-18-2010, 07:29 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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That raises new problems .... finding a design, finding some one who can build it.

Things are so different in Egypt its almost impossible to find mainstream good builders and i lack the knowledge space and skills to attempt it myself (for the time being).

So having that in mind i have to choose a hull that can be build in Egypt by a traditional yard with out using too much technical drawings (as they wouldn't understand it.)
The gap between traditional (highly flexible) and very very very expensive yards is too huge for me (you are talking 10,000 to 18,000 $ for a 7- 8 Meter boat compared to 1000-3000 $ for traditional). Also bare in mind i have something like 100$ of disposable income per month ... and iv been saving for some time ... standard of income is much lower than the US.

Yes safety and my life is priceless but i will have to find a compromise between a safe boat and cost!
Fiber Glass boats cost more but the built quality is very poor (id be safer in a boat build under my nose !).

(Just to give a you a cost figure, a Chrysler 300 C car costs around 142,000 $ !!!! yes ... taxation and customs are beyond stupid ... boats get additional taxation for being a luxury items traditional builders get treated very differently as well!!!!)

So fact is im stuck with traditional yards who are quite flexible so i can enforce my opinion.

Current shoteya design is not as sea worthy as i hoped ..... new design preferable if not a lot of tweaking will be involved.
Due to the above i have no choice but to opt for traditional yard, on my next visit however i can look around in details and see what other designs they have.

I have attached a fiberglass boat i saw, i am still getting the price for it ...
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  #43  
Old 06-18-2010, 08:08 AM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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Forgot to upload ...
Attached Thumbnails
My new baby! 6.8 Meter fiber over wood fishing boat !-p4280040.jpg  My new baby! 6.8 Meter fiber over wood fishing boat !-p4280045.jpg  
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  #44  
Old 06-18-2010, 10:11 AM
apex1
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I understood all these restriction right from the beginning!

But it IS possible to convert such a traditional built into a strip plank, or cold moulded, or ply on frames method without having a design too far away from what the yards know.
And it could come out not too far above the cost of such a traditional boat.

It all depends on the materials easily available there! Check that first.

A glassfibre boat is another animal, and I do not recommend to go that way. The average yard there has no skills, tools and so on.

We will overcome that task, be sure!

Regards
Richard
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  #45  
Old 06-18-2010, 12:47 PM
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Vulkyn Vulkyn is offline
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Originally Posted by apex1 View Post
But it IS possible to convert such a traditional built into a strip plank, or cold moulded, or ply on frames method without having a design too far away from what the yards know.
And it could come out not too far above the cost of such a traditional boat.
I am not sure what strip plank, cold moulded or ply on frames method mean in english!! I'll do a quick search on wiki !
However this particular yard focuses on fiber glass over wood, there are other yards (in Alexandria for example) who build wood only (planks with fillings inbetween then epoxy like - Its called Alfata- to cover gaps then sanding then painting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apex1 View Post
A glassfibre boat is another animal, and I do not recommend to go that way. The average yard there has no skills, tools and so on.
Yah average yards dont build epoxy boats though and the ones that do build it are expensive beyond reason!
However what do you think of the boat construction? Is that any good from a quick glance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apex1 View Post
We will overcome that task, be sure!
One thing so far is that i truly am confident since every one is giving me their support and help ... i feel like there is a team of experts at my side and for that im truly thankful!
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