Minimum Passagemaker/Cruiser

[dskira]

Originally Posted by Willallison

I've seen a few template SOR's... some better than others. The problem is that peoples requirements are so varied that it's difficult no, impossible - to cover all the bases, and one runs the risk of missing stuff out because its not on the list.
There are basics, of course, that will be on most SOR's - the most fundamental, and often the most difficult to get a client to nail down, being budget.
I prefer to start with a blank piece of paper myself.

I think it is the definition of yacht design

Daniel

[waynep]

Originally Posted by apex1

Which sort of nonsense is that? 100 miles Ocean passage? Are you sure you are on the right thread?

And what was the whining about getting no advice good for? Where was it, the members held back their knowledge?

My statement was just a response to the statement made in Post #4 on this thread.... besides, I said "could be" not "is".

As far as the short ocean passage is concerned, the comment was more in regard as to WHY I would settle for 30ft or less. Regardless, if your 100 miles away from any shoreline you might as well be 500 or 1000 miles away from the shoreline as far as safety concerns go.

Originally Posted by waynep

My statement was just a response to the statement made in Post #4 on this thread.... besides, I said "could be" not "is".

As far as the short ocean passage is concerned, the comment was more in regard as to WHY I would settle for 30ft or less. Regardless, if your 100 miles away from any shoreline you might as well be 500 or 1000 miles away from the shoreline as far as safety concerns go.

That answer is as nebulous for me as the former post. I don´t get it, sorry.

And 30 or 40ft boats are not ocean cruisers, no matter what some amateurs say.

What utter nonsense is that again? 100 miles from shore is or can be the same as 500 / 1000 miles? Well, yes. 2 miles from the Somali coast can be more dangerous than 500 miles from the Brtish, thats true.

[WestVanHan]

Power vs sail

I've been around a fair amount,more than average I'd say- Med.,Pacific Islands,Caribbean,Mexico,Australia,NZ.
For every power passagemaker vessel that actually does a crossing,there are 50X or hundreds of sailboats that do it...most of them 45' and under.

Just go to any cruising forum,and you'll find very,very few power vessels.
The one power passagemaker forum I know of (and magazine) has few posts and few members,and they admittedly rarely leave the dock let alone do long journeys.

As an aside, a friend and I made a diversion 3 years ago to fuel up in Venezuela....diesel was 3 cents a litre.....

[pool]

Originally Posted by WestVanHan

Power vs sail

I've been around a fair amount,more than average I'd say- Med.,Pacific Islands,Caribbean,Mexico,Australia,NZ.
For every power passagemaker vessel that actually does a crossing,there are 50X or hundreds of sailboats that do it...most of them 45' and under.

Just go to any cruising forum,and you'll find very,very few power vessels.
The one power passagemaker forum I know of (and magazine) has few posts and few members,and they admittedly rarely leave the dock let alone do long journeys.

As an aside, a friend and I made a diversion 3 years ago to fuel up in Venezuela....diesel was 3 cents a litre.....

That is exactly our experience: the further away you get from coastal cruising grounds, the less poweryachts you find. On our last cruise, after leaving Panama, we met the first power cruiser only after 4 month when arriving in Tahiti. There is any number of sailboats and motorsailers out there, all sizes, budgets, levels of experience and from all walks of life - but all of them have a good reason to have sails on their yacht.

But the motoryacht guys have a terrific marketing. Looking at the Nordhavn site and ads, one could assume that most of their yachts are constantly circling the globe. Not so many actually leave coastal cruising grounds - but those who leave, have the full media spotlight following them. Is it only my personal impression, that an unusually large number of those yachts come up for sale shortly after delivery to their first owners, i.e. their first real life experience of the ocean?

Last time we fueled in Margarita Vz, it was $120 (with a decent tip for the guy at the pump) for 2,200 litres top quality fuel. Security in Vz. has become a serious issue though.

Originally Posted by pool

That is exactly our experience: the further away you get from coastal cruising grounds, the less poweryachts you find. On our last cruise, after leaving Panama, we met the first power cruiser only after 4 month when arriving in Tahiti. There is any number of sailboats and motorsailers out there, all sizes, budgets, levels of experience and from all walks of life - but all of them have a good reason to have sails on their yacht.

But the motoryacht guys have a terrific marketing. Looking at the Nordhavn site and ads, one could assume that most of their yachts are constantly circling the globe. Not so many actually leave coastal cruising grounds - but those who leave, have the full media spotlight following them. Is it only my personal impression, that an unusually large number of those yachts come up for sale shortly after delivery to their first owners, i.e. their first real life experience of the ocean?.

That was valid some 20 years ago, and then just to some extent.

Capable Motoryachts have always circumnavigated, not few of them, a lot.
Of course many of the so named "trawlers" and their siblings are by no means capable ocean cruisers, and not found too often in the remote places.

Then there was (and still is) a public bias that circumnavigating or long passages are possible with a sailing boat only. That was never valid, and slowly the experienced sailors opinions change.
In fact, the highest percentage amongst the "passagemaking" motoryachts clientele are sailors with high skills and often several decades of sailing under canvas. They do not sell their boats after a few months, the opposite. But when you want to see just that, you will see just that. The fact that almost 80% of all the boats in any marina is for sale (not always obvious), is not mentioned! And that 90% of these boats are sailing boats is forgotten! (valid for Europe only)

On my circumnavigations I never had to wait for 4 month to see another motoryacht cruising on long passages.
No doubt, there have been much more sailing boats around, but that is not too surprising for me. When about 85% of the cruisers built, are sailing boats, and the majority of the others are weekenders or coastal cruisers, never meant to go out.

On the barefoot route, you find a motoryacht in every other anchorage meanwhile, and when you go to the tougher places, like Ushuaia for example, their percentage becomes a lot higher. In the remote locations the motoryachts are even dominant.
Times change buddies, and old salts get wise and lazy, not only the Dashews! There are thousands more.
A bit less bias and a bit more experience would do good.

West,

the statement that most of these boats are below 45ft is just not true! Sail the barefoot route, you will see that the average is above 50ft meanwhile. And those with the real miles under their keel, like the Amel Maramu´s or Reinke´s are even above that.

Regards
Richard

Before you call me prejudiced:

[waynep]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

Clarification, this statement was a joke. I have no intention of building another boat - too poor for that now. I was being sarcastic as a lot of people come promising to build a boat trying to catch a unsuspecting designer or get free advice. I am trying to make a priority list of what is important in a passagemaker separating need from want.

Thanks yipster for your attachment I will read later.

Apex1,

Lets see, sentence #3: "I was being sarcastic as a lot of people come promising to build a boat trying to catch a unsuspecting designer or get free advice." - mydauphin

What part of the sentence are you confused about? I caught hell for making a statement about that sentence from dskira. As for you, your confused. I may be confused als, maybe my dauphin could explain since I have been called a winer for making a statement about free advice in a Boat Design Forum.

Weather calls for winds at 30 knots on Saturday in my area. Maybe you could come over here and go for a sail along the coast. What size schooner can you afford to buy for a cruise on Saturday? Like I said in another of my posts - winds are 20 to 30 knots 50%-80% of the time here in the North Atlantic. I don't see too many sail boats around here for some reason. Gee, wonder why?

For most of us, money is an issue. Since money is an issue, boat size is also an issue. Selecting the most cost efficient boat is typically the primary goal. Asking stupid questions are also a part of attempting to achieve this goal.

I'm sure you will have a solution, but that IS WHY I usually ask questions. Questions you may find stupid and not worth the time of day.

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by waynep

Apex1,

Lets see, sentence #3: "I was being sarcastic as a lot of people come promising to build a boat trying to catch a unsuspecting designer or get free advice." - mydauphin

What part of the sentence are you confused about? I caught hell for making a statement about that sentence from dskira. As for you, your confused. I may be confused als, maybe my dauphin could explain since I have been called a winer for making a statement about free advice in a Boat Design Forum.

I post-noted my statement because, many of the designers here who offer free advice with no intent except to help are often approach by new comers that think they are going to get their whole boat design for free. They don't understand the amount of work involved or that a designer makes a living selling his knowledge not give the whole thing for free. I made to point to make it clear that I was not one of those free loafers. I am not a designer, I have built many a boat, and sunk a few. If I give advice is from school of hard knocks, take it or leave it. Sink or Swin.

For most of us, money is an issue. Since money is an issue, boat size is also an issue. Selecting the most cost efficient boat is typically the primary goal. Asking stupid questions are also a part of attempting to achieve this goal.

Let me tell you something about boating. If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it. I have basically an unlimited budget for boating. At the end of the week whatever money is left after food, car and lodging go to my boats. It is a lifestyle and the biggest waste of money you can have. If your are afraid of spending money you are a goner. Things break, corrode and simply die in the worst possible place and it always cost a thousand dollars or more to fix it. Budget your time and money, it is not a matter of money but time and sacrifice.


I'm sure you will have a solution, but that IS WHY I usually ask questions. Questions you may find stupid and not worth the time of day.

It is not the questions that get people upset is the attitude. Many of the people here are Doctors in their fields. Imagine walking into your Doctor's office, not paying him, asking him a bunch of questions and then arguing with him when he answers your question. The Doctor will get pissed at you and send you away.

True Apex can be a little brash, but it is a language thing. But honestly I would just not even to bother to talk to some of the nuts around here except I am bored ...


Hey Apex is that you in the Picture. You look like my brother...ha ha..

[waynep]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

It is not the questions that get people upset is the attitude. Many of the people here are Doctors in their fields. Imagine walking into your Doctor's office, not paying him, asking him a bunch of questions and then arguing with him when he answers your question. The Doctor will get pissed at you and send you away.

Point taken. No one should be attempting to get a full design for free. PhD or no PhD, specific questions to specific problems should not be a problem in a Boat Design Forum. So the question becomes "where do we draw the line", at what point have we become freeloaders? I guess that's for the senior members to decide, but it certainly shouldn't be at question #1 or question #2. I think it is also out of line to place judgement on a person when they ask a question that triggers a thought in the professionals mind that they are not speaking to another Naval Architect. Hopefully, this is a Boat Design Forum for all - amateur and professionl. If it isn't, please let everyone know so we don't waste our time here.

Personally, I am in the processs of designing my second boat. The first one was a small motor boat. I didn't ask for any help on that one because I didn't need to. It's the nicest small motor boat I have ever been in. My second project is going to be a bigger boat. Perhaps larger than I should be attempting, but in general, I believe the process will be very similar.

I have a BS in Civil and Structural Engineering, and I have enough confidence in my skills that I can design and build a boat (within my experience level) better than I can pay to have done by anyone else. I don't care if you have two PhD's. I am a skilled cost estimator, so money is an issue. I don't have thousands of dollars to throw around; I have had it drilled into my head that money is always an issue. For money to not be an issue is a luxury for the very few.

I certainly hope any questions I may have to ask are not a burden to anyone. If your a PhD in Naval Architecture and you feel all your advice is for pay only, maybe you would be better off spending your time doing research in your field of expertise at the University. It may be difficult for a person in the forum to know when they have crossed the line in "your" view.

I read a lot of the posts, and I do see many very knowledgable and experienced people giving very helpful advice, so I am not acusing anyone of anything.

End of my story, and end of my responses to this issue.

[mydauphin]

Everyone here is here to play the boatbuilding game, we just have to play nice and appreciate when help is given. On the science of boat design and building - Like a lot of things in life - it is half science and half art. All the science in the world will not help in the middle of bad tempered body of water. It is 1/3 boat, 1.3 preparation and 1/3 the person involved skill in handling situation. On budget - you don't understand my point - you have to love it and never expect to come in on budget. It never does because one keeps adding more and stuff happen. The word marine means more money. So don't worry if it cost $100k or $200k it means you have to work harder to make it. Just because you have $100k instead of $200k doesn't mean it is going to be cheaper. Figure out what you can do with $100k and keep working to get to your goal. And don't expect it to cost $12k

Originally Posted by waynep

Apex1,

Weather calls for winds at 30 knots on Saturday in my area. Maybe you could come over here and go for a sail along the coast. What size schooner can you afford to buy for a cruise on Saturday? Like I said in another of my posts - winds are 20 to 30 knots 50%-80% of the time here in the North Atlantic. I don't see too many sail boats around here for some reason. Gee, wonder why?
.

Here again, I don´t get your intention.

What have I to do with buying a boat in your area? And why a Schooner? What has my wealth to do with this thread? Your posts are cryptic, sorry.

Stay relaxed, I am from the North Sea, we have harder weather all year round than you, `cos we are on the "windy" side of the pond! And I go out in ALL conditions if need be.

Dauphin

I posted two pictures of your brother! But I look similar................

Regards
Richard

[u4ea32]

Originally Posted by apex1

In short: All

The guy going from a 40ft boat to a 70ft, being disppointed with the sailing performance (pointing) and then comes his conclusion that "having all this accommodation" was wrong. idiotic......

The chapter on Beebe and Leishman (cheap adverts for Nordhavn) calling that pamphlet valid for Passagemakers. idiotic......

Beebe did create (or used) the word passagemaker for the first time, thats true. But the boats he referred to have never been ocean crossing vessels! These were just fast coastal cruisers. Same is valid for the Nordhavn range. They are NOT capable oceean cruisers as advertised. They are coastal cruisers with a long range.

And so on.
Amateurs drivelling along about stuff they don´t know.

Apex1, without your noise, this might be a productive discussion. Please return to your "perfect passagemaker" threads where you may find others who simply don't even recognize the people living quite happily without your self imposed constraints.

[u4ea32]

Can we get back on track?

Talking to many boat builders all around the world, the consistent comment is that the cost of the hull and deck is minimal, its all in the stuff! The systems, the furniture.

I won't directly identify anyone, because they were talking to me, they were not being interviewed for broadcast. Nevertheless, here are some real comments by real builders of quality yachts (all commonly build multi-million dollar yachts).

From the NZ builder of a very well publicized powerboat passagemaker:

"Eliminate everything you can. Don't start building, or even complete the design, until you can't think or anything else you can eliminate. Simplify! For example, instead of a fuel polishing system, use a day take where the fuel pickup leading to the engine is a half meter off the bottom of the tank. That lets a LOT of junk be in the fuel, yet not make it to the engine. As you know I recently built and launched X for Mr Y for $Z million. I liked the boat, but it had WAY, WAY too much complexity for me. So I built essentially the same boat for me, with only the stuff I need. The result was half the weight, and only 15% the cost!"

From the builder of many Grand Prix yachts here in the USA:

"Glass, vinyl ester, and foam, over a male mold. That's the way to go. Don't spend any time trying to design an easy to build shape -- developable, hard chines, whatever -- it really does not matter at all. Design the boat like you want it, we can build it. The cost for the hull, deck, structure, fully painted inside and out is about $12 a pound. This is for a one-off, and includes all mold work." Yes, that means an 8000 lb hull/deck/structure for less than $100K USD. Then, add in the systems and furniture.

For me, I'm going with a 2-4-6-8-10 boat. That's two people living aboard, four for a weekend, six for dinner, eight for cocktails, 10 knot cruise.

I've been measuring exactly what is actually needed. In other words, I'm doing a "zero based" design. Start with nothing, add in the minimum but what is really needed.

MINIMUM!

Berths: one queen size or thereabouts. Must be truly walk around, as you make the bed every single day, and need to get in and out of bed easily every night even when not at sea. Significant direct and adjustible ventilation, such that trade winds actually blow air onto the pillows. A clear view of the water and horizon from the berth. Everyone else can sleep on settees, air mattresses, whatever.

Clothes storage: Hanging lockers are the way to go, as clothes in drawers gets mildew. Hanging net bags for underwear and socks.

Heads: One. Holding tank is necessary. Standing headroom is necessary. Ventilation!

Showers, Spas, Swimming Pools: One shower with thermostatically controlled hot water. Best if separate compartment from the head. Ventilation!

Vanity Infrastructure: one sink with hot water (shaving). Several small storage compartments. Mirror! Ventilation!

Galley: A stove, oven, microwave, toaster, coffee maker. Freezer, refrigerator. Double SS sink with hot and cold fresh water. Trash compartment. All pan, plate, glass, silverware, etc storage allows drainage, so dishes don't need to be dried but simply put away where they will dry (ventilation!). Also, a clear view of the horizon for at least 180 degrees. It must be comfortable to cook underway. Ventilation!

Dining Room: Table for six. Really, six able to sit around the table and enjoy a meal. Great view required. Ventilation!

Saloon: Someplace to lounge around, perhaps two settees P/S, perhaps some chairs. Might be combined with pilothouse. Great view required. Ventilation!

Pilothouse: 360 degree view, able to see entire length and beam extent of vessel. Easy access to decks P/S, fore and aft. Radar, GPS, VHF, SSB, sat phone. Laptop for most information activity including navigation.

Anchoring equipment: two windlasses, one for bow anchor, one for stern. Both may be forward, use lines to get the one anchor to control the stern.

Active electronic stabilization and autopilot.

Single diesel provides propulsion and electrical generation.

Lots of dinghy storage: probably an inflatable or RIB, and a fun to sail rowboat.
Also, storage for bicycles.

Things that seem not needed:

Satellite TV: More fun to watch sports events from a bar with others yelling too.

Internet: Just use what you would use if backpacking: WiFi and a laptop. Don't even try for high speed internet underway.

A/C: While a nice to have, I have been able to get by without AC, even working on the boat in Panama (few places hotter and more humid than Panama!). Remember, you will be cruising, so you can often wait until it gets cooler!

Carpet: Its a boat! Only surfaces you sit on or sleep on should be soft. Everything else should be hard, waterproof. Use a hose down below to wash the salt away after a rough crossing.

DC only: There are clear advantages to also having AC aboard, so bite the bullet here.

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

....don't even recognize the people living quite happily without your self imposed constraints.

Originally Posted by u4ea32

add in the minimum but what is really needed.

MINIMUM!

...

I do not see the point.

For me what you describe is more or less something like the 2M$ dashew FPB 64. Ok, you have shaved 30 000$ of that for removing A/C and Internet.

But you are barely at 10 cruise.

[fcfc]

BTW,

dinner for 6, cocktail for 8, but no dishwasher, nor crew quarters. Your wife agrees ???

Ample cloth storage, but nothing to clean them. Whatabout a washing machine and dyer ... Need I mention ironing ?

Again, warm weather cruise only. No heating ...