Legal question - Licensing Agreement

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Frog4

looking for boat plans for #2 ...
I have found sellers who do not display their Licensing Agreement up front. WHY?

.... because most people who buy plans would assume it to be the case ? Its just bleeding obvious !

Also, all the plans I have bought were sealed on arrival, with the licence on the envelope - with the return address printed on it - so you could return it unsealed for a full refund if you felt you couldn't abide by the conditions.

Honestly - such a meteorological disturbance in a tiny receptacle.

[Frog4]

Originally Posted by rwatson

.... because most people who buy plans would assume it to be the case ? Its just bleeding obvious !

WOW ... so first time boat builders should be born with this "common" knowledge ... awesome ...

I buy LOTS of plans, woodworking, welding, electronics, NONE, not one has come with anything remotely close to this level of sliminess and addendum gotcha garbage ...

Originally Posted by rwatson

Also, all the plans I have bought were sealed on arrival, with the licence on the envelope - with the return address printed on it - so you could return it unsealed for a full refund if you felt you couldn't abide by the conditions.

Not this company, not even offered inside their plans. NOWHERE ...

Originally Posted by rwatson

Honestly - such a meteorological disturbance in a tiny receptacle.

I can do without your ad hominem ... seriously ...

[Frog4]

thanks for all the input ... good and bad ... very enlightening ...

[PAR]

My plans don't include a licensing agreement statement on the shipping tube, though the first piece of paper you see when opening the plans, is the licensing agreement. It includes your sail or hull number, recommended HIN additions and very plainly states what you've purchased (the rights to build a single boat from this particular set of plans or etc.)

The reason this has come to be is very simple; many previous plans purchasers have bought a set of stock plans for 50 bucks and then proceeded to build hulls, lots of hulls, thinking like you are, that they own the right to do so. After many court battles and many boats confiscated, seized and destroyed, the industry (long ago) has settled on this approach. It's not the same as a set of plans for a roll top desk. How many designers spends hundreds of hours (if not thousands) laboring over the plans for a roll top?

In this vain, the licensing agreements have mostly settled the issue, at least as far as court action is required. The same is true of all highly engineered structures. If you buy a set of plans for a small aircraft, you'll face exactly the same issue, for exactly the same reasons. In this regard the plans are very similar, in that they place people in an unnatural environment and a reasonable expectation of not drowning (or falling from the sky) is being assured. Conversely, if you did build precisely to the plans and someone did drown (or fall from the sky) then who do you think would be responsible? The roll top deck designer has no such concern, but the yacht designer certainly does.

This brings me to a final point; also found in all of my plans (and everyone elses I'll assume) is a standard disclaimer about altering the plans removing any responsibility from me. Just guess why this also has to be in there? Well, because some bonehead will try (and has) to take civil action when things go bad, possably people getting hurt or worse (there's that damned unnatural environment thing again). Yet when they get to court, after smearing the crap out of a designer's reputation, it's found they changed this, moved that, etc., etc., etc. and the boat built looks a lot like what the plans said they might when finished, but the "modifications" meant you better not take this farther from shore, then the skipper and crew can swim back to.

Royalty fees are a very common and well understood assessment. Many industries incorporate this into subsequent sales, uses, builds, etc. Everything from music to 3M Post-It note pads have these licensing arrangements. It's a very easy concept; if you want to sell, make, reproduce or other wise occupy your time with one or more "projects" then you have to pay for this right to the owner. Each and every Monopoly game piece, given away by McDonald's has a royalty fee attached (likely a lump sum payment arranged by McDonald's), just so they can use the name "Monopoly". Not only can they use the name and make money off it, but it has to be presented in the fashion they insist it be (Hasbro) to preserve brand identity, etc. Again, this is the point, to protect the image (in this case) of the Monopoly game and logo, yet still permit another party to do something with it (the project). In the case of yacht design, it's to protect the designer AND the owner. This of course assumes you'd like the thing to float with the decks facing up on launch day.

[Pericles]

Frog4,

You are a troll , bitching here because of an incorrectly perceived injustice. You are in the wrong, now cease and desist.

[Frog4]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Frog4,

You are a troll , bitching here because of an incorrectly perceived injustice. You are in the wrong, now cease and desist.

ad hominem ... direct violation of this boards TOS ...

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[Willallison]

Gentlemen... I think a number of you are being a little harsh on Frog4... I draw your attention to the 1st post...

Originally Posted by Frog4

is it an industry standard for boat plan sellers to write up Licensing Agreements for 1 set of plans = 1 boat build ???

Whilst we all understand that it is indeed standard practice in our industry, I see no reason why a newcomer shouldn't be a little surprised to find that it is so. We have explained the situation to him and he has stated that he intends to abide by the agreement... surely there's no need to denegrate the chap...

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

Agreed. Thanks Will.
I also think this thread started out with an honest question and I think as a whole the responses give a good answer and some good perspective. Obviously designers who have had their work misappropriated and who haven't been fairly compensated by a few bad apples in the past may be sensitive as are those who want to see good designers not be cheated, but someone new shouldn't be overly chastised for asking or not realizing right away all that's involved to provide a truly good design; the OP said he has no plans to violate the copyright/license, so I don't think he should be categorized as "treacherous." It seems a few quick cheeky remarks were taken the wrong way, but let's not let that spiral out of hand. I believe Paul touched above on liability, the sheer amount of work for a small percentage compensation, and other issues which make one boat per set of plans or royalties per boat the industry standard. I don't think the plans' seller should be categorized as "slimy" as I would imagine almost every person in a position to build multiple boats has already built a couple individual boats from plans and thus is familiar with the industry standard; at the same time, the fact that the question has come up probably makes a fair point: the seller wants happy customers so if it could be made clear up front for the 1 in 1000 where an issue would arise, that would be all the better. In any case, let's try and keep the discussion friendly. Thanks.

[rwatson]

Forgive me for being so 'unfriendly', but some of the information confuses me, and perhaps others too -

Originally Posted by Frog4

WOW ... so first time boat builders should be born with this "common" knowledge ... awesome ...

I buy LOTS of plans, woodworking, welding, electronics, NONE, not one has come with anything remotely close to this level of sliminess and addendum gotcha garbage ...

For someone who is so active in the plan buying business ....

Originally Posted by Frog4

So it is similar to the Housing Construction/Builder standards ... thanks

And the fact that you are familiar with the concept of 'one off' licences ...

Originally Posted by Frog4

ahh, it's okay for the sellers to be slimy, but expose their stupidity, ignorance and down right slimy tactics and receive 20 lashes ... a little one-sided ya think?

You seem really, really overcome with surprise.

Originally Posted by Frog4

Turns out, it's a blatant rip-off of a craft designed in Holland ... exact lines, displacement, everything ... one change, these are for a wooden build and the originals are steel built ...

For a 'first time' builder - you are building a boat that was originally in steel. This means you are building something at least 24ft - unless it is one of these crazy steel canoes that crop up from time to time.

Originally Posted by Frog4

Then WHY are they marketing to the first time builder, who is NOT familiar with the industry without specifying their Licensing Agreement up-front?

If you are a 'first time' boat builder - why are you so upset about not being able to build more than one boat - and are now looking at plan number two ?

Most builders would be happy to just finish their first boat. If you are so keen on producing multiples - have you found out what the licence fee for subsequent vessels is ? - maybe its a good discount like many designers offer.

Finally, while you are warning us of such bad business practices - maybe you could actually tell us which website is behaving so badly and ripping off other original designs ? At least you might like to tell us how much you actually spent on your plans - so we can share the same degree of umbrage that is so sadly lacking in many responses.