The legal aspects of the build

[ddrdan]

Basic design is done. Mock ups are tested and done. On to the Coast Guard and legal requirements. The vessel is a 6.5 meter tri-toon houseboat. Inboard fuel tanks, water tanks, propane tank and inboard jet propulsion.

I've read the CG's Boat Builders Handbook. Can anyone suggest a lawyer to translate it??

What a discombobulation of legal jargon that thing is! And it defers to the American Yacht Council standards.

I'd like to have to future option of selling the vessel with the assurance that I'm passing on a predominantly safe vessel. The AYC standards are purchased and not free. Any input on which ones I should purchase? (Other than the obvious ones in the craft description in my first paragraph?)

Thanks guys!
Ddrdan

PS: Flotation requirements have got me totally confused??

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by ddrdan

PS: Flotation requirements have got me totally confused??

Well, it might be due to the fact that I have to deal with rules and regulations on daily basis, but I really don't find it so incomprehensible.

What particular part of that section confuses you?

[dskira]

Originally Posted by ddrdan

Basic design is done. Mock ups are tested and done. On to the Coast Guard and legal requirements. The vessel is a 6.5 meter tri-toon houseboat. Inboard fuel tanks, water tanks, propane tank and inboard jet propulsion.

I've read the CG's Boat Builders Handbook. Can anyone suggest a lawyer to translate it??

What a discombobulation of legal jargon that thing is! And it defers to the American Yacht Council standards.

I'd like to have to future option of selling the vessel with the assurance that I'm passing on a predominantly safe vessel. The AYC standards are purchased and not free. Any input on which ones I should purchase? (Other than the obvious ones in the craft description in my first paragraph?)

Thanks guys!
Ddrdan

PS: Flotation requirements have got me totally confused??

Don't to worry, you need nothing from the CG, at 6.5m. and under 5 tons.
Its a guide.
But pay your excise tax, get the boat registered in your State, and sell it to whom want it. Period.
Do a proper and logic work, and put the right amount of PFD and the nav. light.
As for that:

Inboard fuel tanks, water tanks, propane tank and inboard jet propulsion.

You really want that kind of power explosive in your 6.5M. boat?
Reconsider. A nightmare to insure on a small craft.
What about outboard? cheep and easy, with the same propulsion result, if not better than an inboard jet propulsion. And no inboard gas tank, so no problemo Insured in no time and cheap.
My two cents
Daniel

[Stumble]

Ddrdan,

If you decide you need a lawyer I would be more than happy to help you with the Federal requirements. But to be honest I would suggest you instead call your local Coast Guard office and the State Fish and Wildlife agency (whatever there name is). They should be able to talk you through the legal requirements pretty easily.

As for interpreting classification requirements... Those are best done by an engineer not by a lawyer. We make our living by finding loopholes in the rules, not really what you need when considering safety requirements.

[gonzo]

You do need to follow regulations. The builder is liable to a great extent. Not worrying about it will get you into a lot of trouble later. The CFR is very clear and gives you the way to install systems and what materials to use. For example, fuel hoses. You should've read the regulations first, because they will drive the parameters of the design. If you can't understand them, an Admiralty lawyer or NA can make them clear for you. They can also inspect your design and advise you in any modifications in needs to comply.

[PAR]

Agreed, you don't need a lawyer, but following certain guide lines, specifications and practices will make your "comfort zone" considerably easier to live with, particularly with regard to fuel delivery and containment systems. Why would you use a jet drive on a houseboat?

[Ike]

First off look on my web site. http://newboatbuilders.com I try to translate most of the jargon. I worked in the USCG office of boating safety for many years and that was what I spent most of my time doing, interpreting the regulations.

If you are building this for your self following the standards is good for your own safety. If you are building it for the purpose of sale then you are required to follow them. Yes they often defer to ABYC, because for many types of boats there are no federal standards and pontoon boats is one of them. But Canada has standards for pontoon boats and they are taken directly from ABYC and available free on the web. see http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/pontoons.html

As for the US regs, if you have an permanently installed gasoline engine then you do need to follow the fuel system, electrical system and ventilation regulations. You can use the USCG standards or you can buy the ABYC standards. I would suggest H-24 Gasoline Fuel Systems, E-11 Electrical System, and H-35 Powering and Load Capacity for Pontoon boats.

However, If you are serious about building and selling these then I suggest you become a member. In the long run it's cheaper to join and get internet access to all of the standards than to buy individual standards. I have been a memebr since 1984 and it is well worth the annual fee.

Also if you are building to sell you need a manufacturer ID code (MIC). It is simple, easy and free. E-mail po.l.chang@uscg.mil. He will send you a form to fill out and mail in. Three days later you will have your MIC. You need that to put Hull Identification Numbers on the boats.

Any questions, let me know, here or send me a pm

[CatBuilder]

Here's Mr Chang's reply why you ask him about the MIC:


Before I send you an application for the MIC, please indicate:
1) Is the boat you are building for your own use and possible future sale, or is it intended for sale to the public?
2) Do you intend to build additional recreational boats for sale in the U.S. to the public?
3) Do you have a company that is registered with your state?

Originally Posted by Ike

First off look on my web site. http://newboatbuilders.com I try to translate most of the jargon. I worked in the USCG office of boating safety for many years and that was what I spent most of my time doing, interpreting the regulations.

If you are building this for your self following the standards is good for your own safety. If you are building it for the purpose of sale then you are required to follow them. Yes they often defer to ABYC, because for many types of boats there are no federal standards and pontoon boats is one of them. But Canada has standards for pontoon boats and they are taken directly from ABYC and available free on the web. see http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/pontoons.html

As for the US regs, if you have an permanently installed gasoline engine then you do need to follow the fuel system, electrical system and ventilation regulations. You can use the USCG standards or you can buy the ABYC standards. I would suggest H-24 Gasoline Fuel Systems, E-11 Electrical System, and H-35 Powering and Load Capacity for Pontoon boats.

However, If you are serious about building and selling these then I suggest you become a member. In the long run it's cheaper to join and get internet access to all of the standards than to buy individual standards. I have been a memebr since 1984 and it is well worth the annual fee.

Also if you are building to sell you need a manufacturer ID code (MIC). It is simple, easy and free. E-mail po.l.chang@uscg.mil. He will send you a form to fill out and mail in. Three days later you will have your MIC. You need that to put Hull Identification Numbers on the boats.

Any questions, let me know, here or send me a pm

[Ike]

those are the same questions I used to ask when I did it.
1 & 2 Simple yes or no.
3 is a little more complex. Some states don't require a builder to get a license if you are not the person selling the boat, that is you have a dealer. There are other possibilities. Every state is different. What they are really interested in though is sales tax and in some states personal property tax. So you need to to know what your state law is before you can answer . But if the first two are no then three is no.

[Man Overboard]

Ike, question one is not a yes or no question. Intended use: personal, or sale to the public.

[dskira]

Can be both, using the vessel, and then selling it.
But as says Ike, depend the State.
Mostly they want the excise tax, based on the material spent, (all the bills should presented with the total) and some proof of property tax so they know you live in the town, or county where you pay the excise tax.
6.5 meters (21' 2") is mostly about taxes. And personal floatation devises, the number of people can be on-board, and the American way of good common sense.

Daniel

[ddrdan]

Originally Posted by daiquiri

What particular part of that section confuses you?

Calculating the quantity was easy. Calculating 'position' is the part giving me trouble. Using the CG guide directions is confusing as they don't address multi hull. My guess is to evenly distribute the flotation between the 3 hulls. I'm loading the stem and the stern with most of the flotation and then adding even amounts up to the top of the stringers every where else. I calc'd 22 CF and I'm using 25 CF.

[ddrdan]

Originally Posted by dskira

Don't to worry, you need nothing from the CG, at 6.5m. and under 5 tons.
Its a guide.
But pay your excise tax, get the boat registered in your State, and sell it to whom want it. Period.
Do a proper and logic work, and put the right amount of PFD and the nav. light.
As for that:

You really want that kind of power explosive in your 6.5M. boat?
Reconsider. A nightmare to insure on a small craft.
What about outboard? cheep and easy, with the same propulsion result, if not better than an inboard jet propulsion. And no inboard gas tank, so no problemo Insured in no time and cheap.
My two cents
Daniel

I received a free hull damaged 2001 750cc jet ski. It had less than 80 hours on the engine. I pulled the top off it and it's in mint condition. I've incorporated it into the center hull design. I not wanting anymore than maybe 10 to 15 knots in speed. I have no plans of ever trying to put it up on plane.

Moving the engine weight slightly forward and lower helped in the stability calc's. It also eliminated a transom. I also like the basic nature of the steering, throttle, and gear-less reverse. An outboard was a massive anchor high on the tail with heavy cables and linkage. Other than the enclosed fuel tank, are there other problems I'm not seeing?

I've been ignoring the issue of insurance?? My insurance agent told me home built boats can't be insured? Is he wrong?

[ddrdan]

Originally Posted by Ike

First off look on my web site. http://newboatbuilders.com I try to translate most of the jargon. I worked in the USCG office of boating safety for many years and that was what I spent most of my time doing, interpreting the regulations.

If you are building this for your self following the standards is good for your own safety. If you are building it for the purpose of sale then you are required to follow them. Yes they often defer to ABYC, because for many types of boats there are no federal standards and pontoon boats is one of them. But Canada has standards for pontoon boats and they are taken directly from ABYC and available free on the web. see http://newboatbuilders.com/pages/pontoons.html

As for the US regs, if you have an permanently installed gasoline engine then you do need to follow the fuel system, electrical system and ventilation regulations. You can use the USCG standards or you can buy the ABYC standards. I would suggest H-24 Gasoline Fuel Systems, E-11 Electrical System, and H-35 Powering and Load Capacity for Pontoon boats.

However, If you are serious about building and selling these then I suggest you become a member. In the long run it's cheaper to join and get internet access to all of the standards than to buy individual standards. I have been a memebr since 1984 and it is well worth the annual fee.

Also if you are building to sell you need a manufacturer ID code (MIC). It is simple, easy and free. E-mail po.l.chang@uscg.mil. He will send you a form to fill out and mail in. Three days later you will have your MIC. You need that to put Hull Identification Numbers on the boats.

Any questions, let me know, here or send me a pm

Great links, Thanks! I don't have plans to mass fabricate. I'd like to use this one for a couple years and then sell it to build another in the 8m range. My goal is to wind up with a 10m houseboat in "The Keys" to retire on in 7 years. By then my design and build skills should be adequate in self assurance.

[ddrdan]

Originally Posted by dskira

Mostly they want the excise tax, based on the material spent, (all the bills should presented with the total) and some proof of property tax so they know you live in the town, or county where you pay the excise tax.

Daniel

I've been collecting the build materials, tanks, engine, and many other parts over the past 2 years. Enough to almost fill half of a 24x24 garage. What do you do without receipts? Guesstimate a total? I've done it 'out of pocket' over time and much of it was free?