Lee Taylor's Discovery II rocket boat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FranklinRatliff, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. FranklinRatliff

    FranklinRatliff Previous Member

    Comment by Sir Malcolm Campbell on breaking the WSR. "One important condition has to be observed if success is to be attained. That is, you must have dead smooth water for the attempt. You may have otherwise ideal conditions -- all the space you want, no obstructions and perfect visibility for timekeeping and the rest -- but you MUST have smooth water. I had investigated such waters as Loch Lomond, Lake Windermere, and several others in the Lake District of England, but there was always the trouble that either the lake was subject to the curious wind conditions so often found on landlocked waters, or the surface was disturbed by steam and motor craft to an extent that made it impossible to attempt really high speeds."
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member

    water conditions

    Every boat racer knows that glass smooth water is sticky and slow and dangerous! Things go from hydrodynamic to ground affect to aerodynamic without being able to feel it happening and even if you could compensate fast enough you're already dead! I think it was Ken Warby that said her prefers water conditions that are slightly choppy with atleast as predictable winds as possible. You can read air movement on the water at 100+ but at 300+ it is much more difficult. Especially in a craft that is hammering the surface causing poor visibility. Cambell said "I Can't see" , his boat was hard in the final planning surface at that point, and as you enter ground affect everything smooths out. If it gets too quiet you're already dead!

    NAD
     
  3. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member

    The WWSR is one "HELL" of a challenge. In my opinion all but Warby is barking at the base of the wrong tree. To break his record it will take a driver who has a lifetime of experience that relates to feel the forces at work, both in design and ability to control the craft. Warby is the only challenger I know of currently having that ability. It may be my own ignorance to say that Wicks or McKnight don't but from what I have read about them they don't. If you draw from experience in a drag car you are very limited in attempting the WWSR, this may be why history has claimed so many lives. I don't believe science and engineering alone can build a very good new concept to the WWSR. jmo

    NAD
     
  4. FranklinRatliff

    FranklinRatliff Previous Member

    Smooth Water

    Sir Malcolm Campbell was a four-time holder of the WSR, raising it to 141 mph. After WWII a lot of American boat racers thought that was a soft record until they actually tried to beat it.
     
  5. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member

     
  6. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member


    The discovery II was an unproven concept boat just like Quicksilver,AmericanChallenge, and Arvil's or your's. Taylor's older boat, Warby's and many others where improvements on existing design. When you start with a clean sheet of paper and distored views of the forces that be anything can happen. The idea of driving a water craft with a computer into the unknown is absurd. How can you program something to think and feel when you don't know what you are compensating for? It has to be experienced to learn. Discovery II was an incredible design and attempt without a doubt. But it was a failure for some reason. If Lee Taylor was still here we would know more about what really happened. If concept boats are the future in WWSR maybe we should put as much thought into preserving the life of the driver instead of the right to claim the WWSR.
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. charmc
    Joined: Jan 2007
    Posts: 2,391
    Likes: 78, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 840
    Location: FL, USA

    charmc Senior Member

    The Crash Box used in F1 boat racing (similar to the "tub" developed for F1, IRL, and Champ auto racers) is the basis for increasing the chance of the driver surviving a high speed wreck. The boat design includes an auto-inflating float designed to bring the capsule above the surface, whether it is still attached to the boat or not. The box/capsule holds the drivers body and head immobile and remains intact in the worst crashes. Since the speed of a WWSR boat would be double that of top racing boats the forces would be 4 x greater, but it should be possible. Of course, such a system can only increase the chance of survival, not guarantee it.
     
  8. charmc
    Joined: Jan 2007
    Posts: 2,391
    Likes: 78, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 840
    Location: FL, USA

    charmc Senior Member

    Dreamcatcher, I agree with your other statements about the unique environment of the water-air fluid interface in which ultimate speed boats operate. Witnesses agreed, however, that the cause of Taylor's death was the boat's hitting a wave at speed, the same thing that killed Campbell.

    You're right, also, about few people having experience with that unique interface. F1 and Unlimited hydroplane drivers probably come closest, as they operate constantly on the edge of diaster, controlling boats 90% out of the water that want to fly every second.
     
  9. FranklinRatliff

    FranklinRatliff Previous Member

    Water Conditions

    I think one thing we know with certainty is the water conditions in which Discovery II ran at the time of the crash.
     
  10. RANCHI OTTO
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,042
    Likes: 37, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 535
    Location: TRIESTE (ITALY)

    RANCHI OTTO Naval Architect

    Amen and thanks a lot RF for all these interesting informations.
     
  11. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    It seems that at those speeds any water disturbance, even very small can trigger big consequences.
    Interesting but very dangerous and it seems to me quite uncontrollable (a small water disturbance can happen easily for many reasons).

    Some interesting stuff about the subject:


    “Lee Taylor vanished into the frigid waters of Lake Tahoe when his rocket-powered boat disintegrated while trying to set a water speed record and rescue crews have all but given up hope that he could have survived.

    ..... Denver Dickerson, project director for the record attempt, said it appeared the boat hit a "black line" of shifting currents that caught a sponson at the rear of the boat. The boat "just blew apart," Dickerson said.
    He said a black line creates a surface disturbance similar to going over a bump, and the line was where Taylor started to shut off his engine.
    The accident occurred after Taylor had made one of two required runs through the 1-kilometer speed trap in an attempt to break the record of 317.6 miles an hour. Reports on his speed ranged from 270 to 350 m.p.h. before he cut off his engines”.

    http://www.lesliefield.com/personalities/lee_taylor_rocket_boat.htm

    "The World Water Speed record, like the air speed record, is decades old. Australian Ken Warby set the record in 1978 when he averaged 317.60 mph in a 27-foot jet-powered hydroplane called "Spirit of Australia." The official
    speed test, which consists of two back-to-back runs over a one-kilometer straight-away, took place on Blowering Dam in New South Wales, Australia. And where did Warby design and build this hydraulic masterpiece? Underneath a tree in the back yard of a house he was renting in suburban Sydney. "There was a canvas sheet I used to throw over it when it rained," he told the press.

    Attempts at beating Warby's record have come at a high price. In 1980, the previous water speed record holder, Lee Taylor, tried to reclaim his title in a 2.5 million dollar rocket-boat called "Discovery II." The missile-shaped craft was constructed of aluminum, titanium and stainless steel and was powered by a rocket engine that burned hydrogen peroxide fuel. On paper, the power plant generated 8,000 pounds of thrust -- or 16,000 horsepower. Taylor believed his boat would surpass 600 mph.

    The trial took place November 13, 1980 on Nevada's Lake Tahoe. Discovery II roared through its first pass at 269.85 mph and was decelerating when it appeared to hit a swell. Witnesses reported that the boat veered to the left and suddenly disintegrated, vanishing under the surface of the lake in a matter of a few seconds.

    Craig Arfons, a former automotive drag racing champion, was the next to take up the challenge. In 1989, he put the finishing touches on a jet hydroplane called "Rain-X Record Challenger," which boasted a lightweight composite hull and a jet engine that could deliver 5,500 horsepower with the afterburner lit. Arfons calculated that the boat's favorable thrust-to-weight ratio would give it a 200 percent power advantage over Warby's record-setting boat.

    The record attempt took place on Jackson Lake near Sebring, Florida. Members of Arfons' crew say his boat reached a speed of 263 mph before it became airborne and began to cartwheel across the mirror-smooth lake. Arfons tried to deploy a safety parachute, but the angle at which his boat was traveling
    prevented the parachute from opening. Arfons was killed as his boat shattered around him.

    Recently Warby, ... has announced his intention to push his World Water Speed Record even higher with a new boat currently under construction. "I'm far too young to be in a rocking chair, so I thought I'd get back in the cockpit."


    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/barrier/machinesleft.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_speed_record


    This is from Warby site. Two years ago, with 66 he had a boat and intended to go after the record:


    "Ken running Aussie Spirit at Taree June 2005. The only WWSR Challenge Boat complete, floating, and running like a dream. Game On! "

    http://www.kenwarby.com/pre_intro2.htm


    What happened? :?:
     

    Attached Files:

  12. RatliffFranklin

    RatliffFranklin Previous Member

    Craig Arfons

    Based on Dan Ellison's comments about Deaver type dragboat hulls and my own knowledge of the path that Craig Arfons boat followed, I think the best explanation for his crash is, after the boat veered so far off course Craig probably thought he was about to run out of lake, Craig chopped the engine before he was out of the kilo, resulting in a sudden change in sponson loading that set off a cycle of chine walking which lead to the boat blowing over. The water that morning was just glass smooth. The front half of Craig's boat was recovered as a single piece but one of the anchors for his restraint harness had failed.
     
  13. Vega
    Joined: Apr 2005
    Posts: 1,606
    Likes: 26, Points: 58, Legacy Rep: 132
    Location: Portugal

    Vega Senior Member

    Attached Files:

  14. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member

    I agree with you about not needing an air entrapment hull design, but whenever you are trying to fly an object through the air there is going to be lift...riggers blow over too...so do vee bottoms. I often wonder why somone has not taken a 255mph prop drag boat and gone out and run the kilo for the prop record which last i heard was @220. The fear may be that it is difficult to find or predict the water conditions to run that type of hull and stay in control. They can not deal with water conditions with any swells in the surface. Warbys design has lines that appear to be more capable for likely conditions found on the waters surface for wwsr kilo. Warbys boat looks more like a cross between a hydro, tunnel, and a mod vp. I think the flatter surfaces on the drag boat would make it difficult to find a place to set a prop kilo record. Taylors probably could have worked but it had strange lines compared to anything that has proven stability. Could be a transition that type of hull goes through to hydrodynamically lift fully at speed and it may have re-entered that stage because of the conditions. If a boat is going to work the driver and hull is going to have to be able to deal with what the surface throws at it. jmo

    NAD
     

  15. NADreamcatcher
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 39
    Likes: 3, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 43
    Location: Michigan

    NADreamcatcher Junior Member

    safety

    A capsule is a good idea, but like you said may only increase the chance of survival. If the capsule shap is irregular shaped it will tumble so violantly that it will likely kill the driver from impact G forces. A smooth sphere shaped capsule designed to eject and or break away would possibly be the best.

    NAD
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.