Keels and Keels Again!

True. True.

But I like to take my risks more placidly. I would like to design something that I'm pretty sure is not going to fail, given the most likely materials, workmanship, and skill levels that are going to go into it.

Pushing top end materials to their theoretical very structural limit is what I call 'white knuckles engineering'. In grand prix racing circles, where the sailor-athlete is or should be well aware of the risk being taken, it might be called for. But, IMHO, it has no place on 'civilian' boats.

I said, previously, that I don't like sitting in court. That doesn't mean that I would be unwilling to do so under any circumstance.

 

I would suggest all designers design things they are "pretty sure are not going to fail." Don't forget for one second that in high end ocean racing, as in high end auto racing, the designers are generally good friends of the boys who are pushing their designs hard.

In the instance we have been discussing, the TP52, it appears the "top end materials" were not pushed to their "theoretical structural limit." There is no evidence of the "top end materials" failing in any way.

What is it about a TP 52 that doesn't indicate "Grands Prix" to you?

 

Mike (and all),
I've found this interesting documents. So it seems keels will be treated in ISO 12215 part 9 instead of part 6, and we'll see nothing definitive on keels till 2009 at least.
See remarks in blue in the Nov 2007 document (And the curious final "additional comments").
Cheers.

 

Another good reason for a multihull. They don't sink. It's a good story.

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yw/blog/20080304095720blog_elaine_bunting.html

Pericles

 

Guillermo,

A few questions.

ISO 12215 Part 7 – Scantling determination for multihulls. Is it still under development and should it apply to vessels like Groupama lll, which I would have thought comes under at least three exclusions?

Craft intended solely for racing;

Experimental craft not subsequently put on the market;

Craft built for own use, provided they are not sold for a period of five years from completion;

With the surge in multihull ownership and companies like the following, all advocating different building systems and materials, in addition to epoxy/ply composites, cold moulded veneers or cold moulded ply etc., etc., etc., the sheer numbers of boats being built, would seem to demand more of a sense of urgency from WG 18. Even data in Part 8 - Rudder stocks and bearings, that referred to multihullls is deleted, only to be included in Part 7.

http://www.fusioncats.com/
http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm http://www.boboramdesign.com.au/bob-oram/ http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/
http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/default.html http://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/
http://www.multihulldesigns.com/

Here is an extract from an email reply from CEproof about RCD certification for a 25' OB cruiser built by cold moulding with epoxy and thin strips of BS1088 ply.

"The next point is to answer your question regarding materials of
constructions. One of the good and frustrating features of EU Directives is
that they are not prescriptive. This means that anything is acceptable if
you can justify it. So no materials of construction are outlawed but it is
true to say that there is no helpful European standard to pull off the shelf
for this type of construction. Some certifiers, who are not very clever at
structural engineering, may refuse to certify with such a construction as it
is beyond their capabilities but that does not make it an illegal construction. We can certainly come up with a means of assessment. There are a number of possibilities depending upon whether this is a planing, semi-displacement or displacement vessel. I am not familiar with your suggested scantling method but I see no reason why a published method would not be cceptable for RCD. We can certainly advise on that and provide secondary calculations if necessary."

Hasn't anyone completed an assessment of what the scantlings should be, for epoxy bonded cold moulded hulls, which have been around for nearly 40 years? What am I missing?

Best wishes,

Perry

 

Perry,

As you say, CE rules are not applicable to boats intended only for racing, experimental or amateurly builded (although whenever you want to sell the amateurly builded boat after the 5 years period of time, you'll need to pass through a Post Construction Assessment with a Notified Body and CE mark the boat!!!!).

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in Spain an experimental or solely racing boat cannot sail except under certain limitations. This means: If you have a solely racing boat not CE marked, you cannot use it for cruising around with your family, i.e., just racing or training under the supervision of a Club or Federative organization.

If you read the ISO 12215-5 document I've posted a few post ago, you'll find there are rules there for the scantling of laminated cold molded and strip planked hulls. I don't know why CEproof says that. Probably because ISO 12215-5 is not yet harmonized (although it has been already ratified, so I think it will become harmonized soon).

Cheers.

 

Guillermo,

In the UK, we still have the freedom to build any boat we want and use it as we wish, without penalty. After 5 years from its completion date we can then sell that boat without a CE mark, although it would probably be sensible to get an exemption certificate to satisfy the EU authorities.

http://www.ceproof.com/Marine/exemptioncertificates.htm

I suspect that freedom will soon be lost.

True freedom is the willingness to accept all the results and consequences of one's actions, It is a real freedom that is worth defending by war. It's certainly not about dying for one's country. It's about making the other person die for their country! The majority of the British people hate the EU, but we do like Europeans and want and will continue to trade with Europeans, to our mutual benefits. We just don't want the EU Directives from Brussels messing with our way of life. We aren't French, German, Italian, Spanish or Polish. We are just different. It's who we are, but actually we are probably GALICIAN from 15000 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes

Best wishes,

Perry

 

Salud, primo!

 

From June 2007,

I had not realised that this was a brand new boat. 14 men were rescued after a call from a mobile phone, it could have been a very tragic event since no life raft or EPIRB was deployed.
Does anyone know if the blame was on design, fabrication or assembly ? I have heard nothing.


A refresh on this one from the news story link below;

The brand-new Juan Kouyoumdjian-designed IRC 55 Bounder which was built by Goetz Custom Boats in Bristol, Newport Rhode Island lost her keel and capsized on Saturday while sea-trialing off St Catherine’s Point in 18-20kts of breeze.

This new, sleek-looking racing machine was shipped across the Atlantic earlier this year and launched at the end of March in Portsmouth, UK commencing sea trials in preparation for the Rolex Fastnet Race and the Sydney Hobart.

Her owner Chris Little (Admiral of the RORC) was not on board at the time of the accident but the 14-strong team was successfully airlifted to safety. According to Jeremy Robinson who was at the helm on Saturday, the crew feel very lucky indeed that it happened where and when it did. “The boat went over so quick I didn’t even have time to put on my lifejacket. It was all pretty scary stuff.”


Designer
http://www.juanyachtdesign.com/

Builders
http://www.goetzboats.com/projects/race/bounder/index.html

One Article on this which I have quoted above.
http://www.sail.ie/wp222/?p=47

 

I have found nothing either. Total silence.
Those guys are most probably blocking information.
Cheers.

P.S. Looking for info I've found this interesting image on how much the new breed of light beamy boats like to remain inverted after a capsize.
http://www.sail.ie/wp222/index.php?paged=4

 

Sad to note, another keel lost, with loss of life:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=73804&st=0

Respectfully,

Earl

 

"Coast Guard officials said that the keel of the overturned vessel had been ripped off, which indicates the Cynthia Woods may have hit something in the water."

Cape Fear 38 review by Bob Perry:
http://www.sailingmagazine.net/perry_capefear38.html

Cheers.

 

So far, none of the survivor's accounts mention a collision. The interview with the surviving Safety Officer (a retired Coast Guard Commander) is much more consistent with structural failure.

Cheers,

Earl

 

Another keel, Another Death - How Long?

...from http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=45295&SRCID=0&ntid=0&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

This week five sailors spent 26 hours holding hands in the sea and singing to keep them going after their boat sank suddenly. They had only four life jackets, and took turns to go without. The sixth sailor was missing from the group, and they hoped he was floating somewhere.

It would later emerge that he had sacrificed his own life for two of the others. Finally, it was only a small torchlight in the dark that alerted rescuers to the position of the five, or the tragedy could have been much worse – and the cause? Yet another keel which failed and fell off.

It's little more than a month ago that the International Sailing Federation, expressed alarm at the 'growing number of keel failures', which has 'highlighted the need for yacht designers, boat builders and owners to check their yacht structures'.

Alarm has been growing in the yachting fraternity for years about this, and the admission is good, but the statement alone has not stopped the keels from falling off. The latest tragic story is one of those that make you stop to wonder that it has taken so long for yacht designers and boat builders to take notice.

The crew of six were participating in the Regata de Amigos, a sailing race from Galveston to Veracruz, Mexico, that began festively Friday afternoon when their boat, the 'Cynthia Woods,' and approximately 25 other vessels set sail on the planned 700-mile race. Three of them are students: Steven Guy, Joseph Sanana and Ross James Busby. A fourth crew member Travis Wright had graduated last month.Accompanying the students were two safety officers.

The first hint of a problem came at 11:45 p.m. Friday when Safety Officer Roger Stone 'stuck his head up and said we were taking on water,' surviving Safety Officer Steve Conway said.

Before he could adjust a sail to relieve wind pressure, 'the boat flipped onto its side,' Conway said. 'That's the point where the keel had to have come apart.'

The on-deck crew were suddenly in the in the sea. A few seconds later, Guy popped up out of the water. Guy said Stone directed him out of the cabin and gave him a final push that freed him from the incoming water. He had also pushed another student against the inrush of water.

'I held my breath and was getting ready to dive under,' Guy said. 'I felt him push me and he pushed me into the cockpit.'

Guy said he grabbed the boat's wheel and pulled himself toward the stern. He said he surfaced next to Conway.


Moquini, 2005 - six sailors lost - . ..
The two students who were below deck at the time reported water shooting up from holes in which long bolts attach to the keel's flange. They tried to stop the water with an emergency plug, but quickly the entire keel was compromised.

For the next 26 hours, the five men waited, treading water in the Gulf of Mexico.

All of them have sailing experience, but nothing prepared them for the helplessness of waiting for someone to find them. Keeping them together and in good spirits was the 55-year-old Conway, A&M safety officer and a retired Coast Guard commander.

The five used four life vests and positive attitudes to stay alive, Guy and Conway, director of computing and information services at the Galveston campus, said, as they related the group's struggles and nighttime rescue.

They described seeing Coast Guard helicopters methodically searching for them in the distance and a Coast Guard jet flying right over them, but unable to see their heads bobbing in four- to six-foot seas during the day Saturday.

'We could see the search all day,' Conway said.

As told by the Houston Chronicle, it was Steven Conway's little light helped U.S. Coast Guard rescuers spot the group early Sunday morning. Conway said darkness saved the group's lives when a helicopter crew heading directly toward them caught a flash from the safety light Conway had placed on his life vest.

The pilot, Lt. Justo Rivera, said he otherwise could not have seen them as they as they floated 11 miles south of Matagorda Bay.

Within minutes, the chopper was above the survivors, flashing its landing lights to let them know they'd been seen, then popping on a floodlight before sending a swimmer to help them get into a rescue basket, one by one.

Guy spent most of the ordeal being held by the others. After about 18 hours, the sailors began taking turns going without a life vest.

'We were constantly watching the person without the life jacket, to make sure two people were holding him at all times,' Conway said.

As for Conway's life-saving flashlight, he plans to build a glass and wood box to keep it on display in his home.

Some other infamous keel failures:

Probably the most infamous was that of Tony Bullimore in 1997, who was saved from the Antarctic after a massive Australian Navy operation.

In 2003, racing yacht Excalibur sank after losing its keel near Port Stephens in Australia, and four of the six crew were lost.

September 2005, Yacht Moquini on a Mauritius to Durban race went missing. Six crewmembers lives were lost and the Moquini was later discovered floating upsidedown without a keel.

November 2006. Alex Thomson and Hugo Boss in the Velux 5 Oceans Race lost their keel, the boat capsized, but no lives were lost

February 2007, the owner and four crew of the Max Fun 35 yacht Hooligan V sailed from Plymouth towards Southampton. The boat’s keel became detached and the boat capsized, causing the loss of life of one crew member.

 

More here:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5837037.html

Earl