A kayak as a mold

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by nitsuj, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. nitsuj
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    nitsuj Junior Member

    touché
     
  2. nitsuj
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    nitsuj Junior Member

    Well, you may not understand what patents are for.

    It's to reward the inventor, period. Contrary to your point patents are considered are resource for communicating the technical details of inventions to better inform the general public, specifically other potential inventors who may improve upon the original design, i.e. adding electric propulsion to an unprotected patented kayak. Building on ideas is basic to our development as a society. To encourage technological growth, a short-term method of reward tied into the economy is created.

    The obligation you mentioned isn't a moral one, it's a capitalist one.
     
  3. Jeremy Harris
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    Continuing this thread will achieve little more, I believe, because the OP is simply intent on justifying the theft of the hard work of others and clearly isn't going to change his or her views.

    It may be that the OP is now really just trolling the forum to get a reaction, rather than seeking help and advice or contributing something worthwhile to this community. Unfortunately, some folks only get a buzz in their lives from winding up others; for some bizarre reason they get amusement from being able to create a reaction. Pretty juvenile in my view, but I guess it takes all sorts.

    Perhaps we should just leave nitsuj to steal and thieve his way through life without making any further responses. I don't believe that what he's doing is morally (or even legally) OK, but then I suspect he already knows that and just doesn't care two hoots either way.
     
  4. Jenny Giles
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    Jenny Giles Perpetual Student

    Good points.
    Capitalism is waning after 150 years and only fools think it is the last phase in human affairs.
    Splash away. No-one is going to be hurt by what you do.
     
  5. Jenny Giles
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    Jenny Giles Perpetual Student

    Nonsense, gramps. Patents are a relatively recent Western imposition. It is not even a moral question for the majority of the world's people.
    In the Digital Age people can choose what to pay for designs, music, entertainment and other products.

    In your world view, only the rich can have text books because it is wrong to copy and distribute digital copies. Only the wealthy can have the latest entertainment while the poor must make do with re-runs of McHale's Navy and other old crap. You can call them thieves for all it matters. I think you are just elitist scum.
     
  6. nitsuj
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    nitsuj Junior Member

    Jeremy, you open your post with staging me as someone who is intent on on stealing. That I am merely trying to instigate negative emotion, this is the only thread I started. I'm not randomly posting

    You may not have noticed my hard work here, perhaps you just don't give two hoots about facts.

    You didn't raise any points for your side of the debate, other then how you feel. Let me tell you this. Nobody (exclusive of those who care for you) gives two hoots how you feel. It's not all about you, Jeremy, your feelings don't govern my behavior.

    So make all the slanderous remarks you need to try and get your point across Jeremy, very intelligent, mature and well thought through. I thought you would be above such low ball attempts at debate, however I've been wrong before.

    Perhaps the cliche that engineers have notoriously poor social skills, includes "boat and ship design professionals". I don't take that cliche literally, but you are making it difficult Jeremy.

    Raise points, tell me who has a patented kayak design out there in the market, direct me to links that even hint splashing a kayak infringes on copyrights and or patents.
     
  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Jeremy, John and Stan, as I mentioned a few posts ago (my posts) there's no discussion with this guy or any of the uneducated in this generation. They get their music and movies for "free" and think everything else in life should be the same. It'll be a hard lesson later in life for them, but they'll eventually learn and 30 years from now they'll be taking the same position we are after the suggestion that they're efforts are worth paying for. This "little boy" syndrome is a fair commonly understood social situation. The more they're told to pull up their paints, the more they let there shorts show, until they realize they've lost things as a result of their behavior and only then will they consider pulling up their paints.
     
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  8. Jeremy Harris
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    Jeremy Harris Senior Member

    You're right, PAR. All we're doing now is elucidating insults from those too poorly educated to have a reasonable command of the English language, or even take the time to actually read the content and understand the meaning of those posters they are throwing insults at.

    Generally, when a debate sinks to the level of one side just throwing insults at the other, rather than making a competently-worded rational argument, it shows that they really don't have a means to defend their position. What people who advocate theft like this seem to have a problem understanding is that it will lead to no one creating anything for them to steal.

    If I make a living by, for example, selling books that I write, then if people were allowed to copy and distribute my work for free I would lose my source of income. Pretty soon I'd stop writing books, because I wouldn't be able to feed my family by doing so, and the people stealing my work would have nothing to copy and pass on. I'm not at all sure that those who try and defend theft like this can see that far ahead, or realise the implications that their actions will eventually have. It seems a retrograde step to encourage free sharing of everything, as it removes the motive for creating novel items, so slowing the development of good ideas.

    As someone once wisely advised me, there is "no point in arguing with a fool, he will just drag you down to his level and then beat you with experience"
     
  9. Cheesy
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    Cheesy Senior Member

    There may be moral questions about splashing a boat however there are not legal questions, a boat/hull design is not protected by copyright, end of story. A boat can be covered by a registered design or what ever name the equivalent name is i your particular country. A registered design is not automatic, it must be applied for and paid for. If the designer does not place any value on the design its up to them to not register it, conversely if they felt there was some merit to their design would they not be silly to not protect the design??
     
  10. nitsuj
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    nitsuj Junior Member

    Actually Jeremy I am proud of the research I've done. Especially proud that my intuition at the onset was fairly right (besides the point that you cannot make a patented product or use one, unless agreed upon). Im shocked you still use a book (copyright) as an example, here is an insult, my first one, to you. Are you dense man? Copyrights and patents have been discussed here ad nauseum, how could you still be even remotely confused. Of course copying a book you don't own is wrong/illegal. Of course copying anything copyright protected that you don't have a license for is wrong/illegal, and copying a patented product is also illegal without prior agreement.

    I have posted replies here linguistically superior to yours and especially PAR's. (infact I've probably broadened PARs vocabulary, example, you mean I should pull up my pants PAR, not paints, I don't wear paint for pants)

    Insults have been directed at me. Little boy, a thief, in company with murderers, threatened with violence, uneducated on and on.

    I have thrown PARs comments back at him in a different light, to give him and others some new perspective on what he is saying. Clearly he can't look many steps forward in a debate, and therefore doesn't consider what he is saying.

    I have insulted you once, as I clearly pointed out for you to take note of.

    Jeremy even after I asked you to tone down the insults and provide me with facts with regard to the legalities of splashing a kayak, you reply with nothing more than rubbish version 2 (hope it didn't take you too much hard work for I may owe you for having read it:rolleyes:)

    To your own point Jeremy, "Generally, when a debate sinks to the level of one side just throwing insults at the other, rather than making a competently-worded rational argument, it shows that they really don't have a means to defend their position. "

    #1. I have not only defended my position, I clarified both sides as a result.

    I am still waiting for your "competently-worded rational argument". However since I have already done the hard work while you just posted your feelings, your "competently-worded rational argument" reply I am requesting would be moot. See #1.

    So that being said, my work here is done, it was fun.

    Since I gave you an insult Jeremy, I want to be fair and insult PAR too.
    I took a look at the boat drawing PAR has in his profile page. I hope to God that is not what PAR refers to as a technical drawing lol. Hatch door goes here, here is the rudder, these are the sails...gimme a break. My 4 year old nephew makes better boat "designs".
    All kidding aside, the technical drawings I did in grade 10 high school were far far more complicated then that. So I suspect REAL boat/ship designs are incredibly technical and make your drawing look like a finger painting (that is painting, PAR not panting)

    Oh btw PAR, the beagle in the picture is adorable. I hope he/she gives you balance.

    Not knowing you in the slightest PAR, I don't want to leave here after just taking a dump on your boat design picture.
    Designing boats, and especially those with sails, I imagine is very very difficult. I would not have the slightest clue how the proportions should be on a sailboat. Whats more, I'd guess the ease that a sailboat travels through the water is crucial, as not to waste a bit of wind power to move water. Many variables that all play in concert with each other. Nudge one a little and all the rest need a revisit of sorts I'm sure. So PAR if you are truly a "Yacht Designer" you have my respect, and don't sweat the little guy grinding you on splashing a hull. I am no competition for you in that regard.
     
  11. Nurb
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    Nurb Junior Member

    You should take this advice nitsuj. Even if you are not bound by any code of morality to not steal other people's work and can legally get by splashing a hull not covered by the vessel hull design protection act, it seems clear by your own comments you do not know what design to steal/splash to accomplish your goals.
     
  12. Nurb
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    Nurb Junior Member

    That's analogous to xeroxing your entire book and bundling it with a calculator. You are still stealing/splashing the entire kayak hull design the same as if you xeroxed an entire book and then bundled with some other product to sell as your own.

    Laying up a mold on an existing boat makes it trivial to steal the exact hull design from that boat. If you actually wanted to improve upon the design, molding from an existing boat is a poor and sloppy start to try and incorporate any significant changes/improvements.
     
  13. Nurb
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    Nurb Junior Member

    It is surprising how few designs are actually registered under:
    http://www.copyright.gov/vessels/list/index.html?


    Relevant reading:

    http://www.copyright.gov/reports/vhdpa-report.pdf

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...ct-amended-vessel-hull-design-protect-act.pdf

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/at...hull-design-protection-act-amendment-2008.pdf

    http://www.law.uconn.edu/homes/swilf/ip/statutes/hull.htm
     
  14. nitsuj
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    nitsuj Junior Member

    I had to comment on this. I see what you are saying there Jeremy and it's a good point. Does the motivation of earning wealth have a more significant positive effect on technological advancement then freely sharing the information outright and with all immediately? I lean towards the balance the Canadian government has in place for patents (except for pharmaceuticals).

    I always have to say it but, copyrights are different and copying them without agreement isn't morally right or legal. If you put time and effort into something, it will always be yours and even after your gone for 50 years it will be yours, whether or not it would be worth money i.e. a hit song or book or kayak design on paper/digital.

    By the way Jeremy, it's particularly tough for me to cut through the biased BS banter in your comments and get to the point. As you would put it, that's the difference between a "competently-worded rational argument" and not.
     

  15. Nurb
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    Nurb Junior Member

    By condoning splashing you shift the economic benefit towards those willing to steal other people's work and away from those doing the research and development.

    Company A funds 3 years of design, analysis, and prototype testing to perfect a hull shape.

    Company B waits until Company A sells their first kayak, buys one, and splashes it.

    Company B now can sell their copies cheaper and undercut Company A so Company A goes out of business.

    The market is now left with cheaper copies and without the company who funds design work.


    Selling an electric motor or integrating a package does not require you to steal a hull design from someone else.

    You and the overall advancement of technology would be better off working with those who actually designed the hull shape you are looking to splash.
     
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