How would she ride in weather?

[witzgall]

Hi all;

I am considering a particular boat that is an extreme, shallow draft cruiser. My wife and I have sailed on her once, in light air, and the boat was great.I wanted to open a discussion on how this vessel might perform in heavier air and large seas - as she was designed, or at least being marketed as a go anywhere cruising and bluewater boat. Particularly, I am concerned about tenderness, comfort and two-person managablility. Also, the boat has rack and pinion steering, is it possible to install an autopilot> She has selft steering, but I would like the option of an AP as well.

Here are some pictures of the boat:

http://www.witzgallphotography.com/images/salt

some specs: 64' mast height. Carbon and s-glass construction that is water tight.
26,400 disp.
13.6 beam
2.5' up, 8' down draft. Eliptical keel, 2500#, 7500# additional lead ballast in bilge
Chain is stored amidships, and kept out of the bow.
47' LOD, 50' LOA, 35'7" LWL

The owner said that the first reef goes in at ~10 knots, but she also will sail in under 5kts of wind. Cutter/Ketch rig, roughly 25% - 50% - 25% sail distribution.

Designed by Craig Walters, who did the Clearwater 35

Build quality is extremely high, Cold Molded.

Any ideas or comments?

Thanks,
Chris

[tom28571]

In order not to be sadly dissapointed you really need to try the boat out. Not to say that it won't do what is claimed but it is not likely that it will be as stiff as a fixed keel boat. Dick Carter and the French have done some similar swing keel offshore boats that have been acceptable.

The real question is whether you need the shallow draft. If not, I'd prefer more lead down low. Reefing at 10 is kind of a givaway.

[witzgall]

She carries alot of sail, so I initially thought that was the reason for theearly reefing. I need to find out the actual SQFT.

The shalow draft is not my primary reason for being interested in the boat, but I can see it's advantages on the east coast and Bahamas.

I am most concerned how she does in seas over 6 ft and 25 kts. I am not sure if I could be lucky enough to get a test sail in those conditions, but it is theoretically possible.

Here is the layout and profle drawings:


Chris

[tom28571]

Chris,

I kinda like the look of the boat. With 7500# internal and with the profile as shown it looks like here is not much in the way of a bilge except under the engine. A ballast/displacement ratio of about 38% is on the
high side so it may be stiffer, after initial heel, than it at first appeared. Also the rig gives lots of variation in sail area for helm balance.

Still, since the boat is probably not cheap, a survey including stability test is in order and a qualified NA to run the stability numbers would be good too.

I'm ready for a sail and live in a shallow water area.

[Vega]

"A ballast/displacement ratio of about 38% is on the
high side so it may be stiffer, after initial heel, than it at first appeared. Also the rig gives lots of variation in sail area for helm balance".

That's about the same Ballast/displacement of the typical French “Deriveur” and they don't have ballast in the keel. But they are beamier and have more form stability and that gives them more initial stability. Probably this boat will have a better reserve stability than the French ones, but I agree with Tom about having more information about the boat stability. It is a nice boat, but a boat that takes in the first reef with 10k of wind is ...unusual. How many reefs have the sail?

[witzgall]

2 reefs, described by the owner in the position that would correspond to a 1.5 and 3 reef point.

I always took the early reefing as sign that a large sail area could be set in light winds. but I am a bit sceptical. How much of this is large sail area, and how much is becuase of possible lower stability?

Chris

[longliner45]

not to be rude,,but by looking at her lack of low ballast,this may not be the boat you are looking for to travel offshore in

[tom28571]

Chris,

Don't give up on the boat over our ruminations. It could be just great for your use. I gotta leave early tomorrow for Florida to get to the launching of the Everglades Challenge fleet in St Petersburg so won't be around much for a couple weeks. I'll be interested in the outcome.

[longliner45]

I keep looking at this boat ,and I really am starting to like it ,how old is this design?Im not big of swing keels or rudders in back,but she looks well built otherwise. low to the water ,I do like the prop skeg . longliner

[witzgall]

She was built in 1991. Many times I have written her off - too much boat for us, matainance, etc. But I keep coming back to her as a possible purchase. Kind of infectious, really. I love her lines, and although the layout is not typical of a crusiing boat, it has grown on me as well. The only thing I woul likely want to change right away is seeing if the running backstays on the mainmast could be changed out for stationary ones. I don't want to deal with them on a cruising boat.

I just worry what she would be like in rally nasty weather.

Chris

[Vega]

Originally Posted by witzgall

2 reefs, described by the owner in the position that would correspond to a 1.5 and 3 reef point.

It makes no sense. I mean if that is the reef arrangement, to take the first reef at 10k of wind, unless the owner is a very cautious sailor and take the first reef in when the boat heels more than 15º .

Narrow boats take a lot of heeling while sailing and that is normal. Go and have a test sail. Probably that story is not well told.

[water addict]

I like the looks of the boat. If going offshore, my concern would be fixing the keel in place in case of a rollover, if you are to do extensive offshore work. Don't want that keel slamming back into the hull and breaking free if you are upside down.
As far as the overall stability, pay a rule measurer to do an inclining test to locate the VCG. Then you can estimate the hull shape, which one can do nowadays pretty quickly in a boat design package, pretty dern close to the actual hull. Plot out the righting arm curve to get an idea of the stability behavior at sea, compare to righting arm curves in numerous texts or articles to see if it is stable enough for your purposes.

[Crag Cay]

Yes, having someone look at it properly is the only way. It wouldn't be cheap unless you could do a lot of the measurement work yourself.

Once you have the shape of the boat, its true displacement and CofG in the computer, an answer to your concerns would be quickly forthcoming. If you do get it done, make sure the downflooding points are inputed accurately and the boat is heeled to starboard in the hydrostatics software as it has an offset companionway.

[witzgall]

Perhaps I could track down the designer, Craig Walters. Anyone know where he is these days?

Chris

Originally Posted by Crag Cay

Yes, having someone look at it properly is the only way. It wouldn't be cheap unless you could do a lot of the measurement work yourself.

Once you have the shape of the boat, its true displacement and CofG in the computer, an answer to your concerns would be quickly forthcoming. If you do get it done, make sure the downflooding points are inputed accurately and the boat is heeled to starboard in the hydrostatics software as it has an offset companionway.