How do you get the engines out?

[dvgale]

As a commercial naval architect gravitating into yacht design, I am pursuing a distance-learning course (as such, I expect you'll soon be seeing my posts in the Education section, too). As an early design problem, I'm working on a concept design for a deckhouse-style sportfisherman (or, for the market-minded, I suppose the term "convertible" is apropos).

One seemingly perplexing problem : How are the engines removed and replaced on these boats when the time ultimately comes? While earlier models usually had hatches or removable deck panels in the saloon, today's seem so chockablock with fine furnishings, high-tech galleys, tackle and bait prep stations, etc. that removal through the deck seems a logistical nightmare. Of course, there's the aft bulkhead of the deckhouse to get past, as well. I understand the deck/superstructure may literally need to be cut on some models , i.e., no hatches, panels, etc., the boat having been virtually built around her engines.

In my experience with commercial/military ships and boats, a "vertical removal route" is generally considered a good design feature. This might involve removing/replacing large machinery along a straight vertical route through one or more decks via a welded or a bolted equipment removal plate (WERP or BERP), or possibly by disassembling a modular stack assembly. The decks of such ships will have been structurally designed to accommodate such removable sections, and soiling a cabin is likely not the issue that it would be on a yacht.

Any input on machinery removal aboard a sportfisherman -- or on any type of yacht, in general -- where the deckhouse intrudes -- would be greatly appreciated. What method(s), if more than one, are preferred? What design features can be incorporated at the outset to minimize the cost and labor of future engine replacement? I expect major repairs, up to a certain degree, are handled by the "ship-in-the-bottle" approach, i.e., disassembling bad components and replacing them right in the engine room, but when the old engines are spent, the new ones won't just grow in there.

[Terry]

Unless it's a large trawler type yacht with a single engine, most non-commercial boats need to be practically torn apart to remove most anything these days. Decks and cabin bulkheads need to be cut to remove even gensets, let alone main engines. These repairs tend to run in the several (read "many") thousand dollar range, not including the cost of the engines.

Some engines can be rebuilt in place, but the trend for extra-large engines in an extra-small engine room makes that option a nightmare and sometimes not an option at all.

I would love to see removable hatches above each engine. They don't need to be visible and can be hidden by carpet and/or furniture, but can be accessed if and when it's necessary.

Sorry if I seem to be ranting, but this issue is one that's been "stuck in my craw" for awhile.

[dvgale]

Thanks for your input! Indeed, the situation sounds as bad as, or worse than, I'd originally realized - and I'm sure many, many owners are likewise dismayed.

Truly, a remedy sounds worth investigating. I would tend to think that, given the cost of a new boat in the first place, the added cost to redesign and beef up structure to accommodate engine removal features would not be that much more - and would more than be offset by the savings realized by not having to tear apart decks and cabins.

[willibuch3]

I have been facing the engine room size problem. I recently started construction of a 34 ft sharpie style almost flat bottom power boat. Powering with one of the 4-stroke outboards (100 to 150 hp) seems to be a good option.

[Terry]

Originally Posted by dvgale

Thanks for your input! Indeed, the situation sounds as bad as, or worse than, I'd originally realized - and I'm sure many, many owners are likewise dismayed.

Truly, a remedy sounds worth investigating. I would tend to think that, given the cost of a new boat in the first place, the added cost to redesign and beef up structure to accommodate engine removal features would not be that much more - and would more than be offset by the savings realized by not having to tear apart decks and cabins.

I think that the problem is not with the designs. It shouldn't be extremely hard nor expensive to design access to the machinery space. I perceive the problem to be the buyers. They want the most usable space they can get for their barco loungers, giant sofas and plasma TVs (and yes, I have seen these on sportfishing boats). They either don't know what's in store for the future, or are unwilling to sacrifice any space for a reasonably sized engine room.

The real trick for the yacht designer is to find a happy medium.

[gonzo]

Many boats, like Silverton, are notorious for bad design when it comes to removing machinery. Many need holes cut into the cockpit sole. The engineroom access hatches are often too small for the engine to come out. Regal has a good system. The whole cockpit, including seats, upholstery, everything up to the swin platform, lifts with a hydraylic ram. They are really nice to work on.

[Portager]

Since Portager must have a low profile to clear low bridges on the road and space is at a premium, the engine “room” is below the sole of the pilothouse and I do not have the luxury of a stand-up engine room. My plan is to have engine hatches that will open up the floor of the pilothouse and turn the pilothouse into a standing engine room. To complete the package, I plan to have a bolt-on or weld-on hatch in the roof of the Pilothouse for a vertical removal route. Since Portager will be welded aluminum construction, the weight penalty shouldn’t be too much and since the maximum height on the trailer is 14’, and draft will be about 4’ the pilothouse roof is only 10’ above the waterline.

Regards;
Mike Schooley

[PAR]

I just cut a gen set out of a famous manufacture's product last week. It was installed, as was most of the machinery, before the deck cap was. It now has the beginnings of a proper hatch (I've yet to complete the project) as the thing will have to be put back in and I'd expect will have to come out again sometime. The space it lives in isn't user or service friendly, but at least you can get at the beast.

It's very difficult not to compromise these spaces for the other compromises designer's are forced to make during the design process. Personally I think all staff associated with a design should have to pull a mock routine maintenance schedule on each proposed design. This could be done in a virtual walk thru at a box, but the sales, legal and interior design staff would be in for quite a surprise when they have to remove 3 of the four panels surrounding the engine space to pull the dip stick to check the oil.

[captword]

I know that some of the pro builders here know of this tech. but I will mention it to those that do not know. When I have a customer that is worried about appearance but we still will need access later. We use the two hundred pound dacron technique in the hatch crack. After the motor or what ever is installed we bolt down the hatch. In one case a cocpit deck hatch we installed a bolting flange onto the hatch before we glassed it. nothing seen from above but un boltable from below. As far as the crack on deck we double up the dacron and lay it in the crack a lite coat of 5200 to seal then allfair fairing until flushand paint. when we need to get in hatch take a knife and cut down to dacron. Take some vise grips and pull the dacron out revealling the hatch.
I have a customer that has had prob on the engine front so i have considered and probably will put a removable back bulkhead using the bolt on plate mentioned before. The bottom seem will be hidden under the toe kick under the ice boxes and step on aft side of the bulkhead. the upper seem will be hidden behind a shadow box where the lights for these boxes will be installed. on the inside there will be shadow box at the top to hide the door track and atmoshere lights. The inside will have removable molding and finished veneer plywood. alowwing you to remove it and get to the bolts and undo the bulkhead if a major repower is needed. the owner knows that the plate will add weight but when you factor in the cost of the chainsaw technique that some newwer boats must use to get the job done. he likes the plate.
ANy thoughts on this Idea?
Howard

[gonzo]

It sonds great for custom boats that are painted. Production boats usually come out of a mold. I think a well designed hatch cover can enhance the looks of a boat.

[mmd]

My experience has been that either the builder does not want to put the extra money into the detail work necessary to create engine access or the client doesn't believe that he will have a problem during the time he owns the boat. Both utter the same statement, "It will be the next guy's problem". As I get paid to design what my client wants, I am left to be "that jerk designer who doesn't know crap!". It gets frustrating at times.

Ya gets what ya pays for, I guess, and well-designed and built engine access routes cost a little bit more than just dropping a motor in an open hull and sealing the deck down on top of it.

[Corpus Skipper]

This is one of the biggest reasons my Dad and I chose our Chris Craft. The aft cabin bulkhead is the foreward engine room bulkhead, the way it should be! Both engines have a full hatch above, and the complete engine (including manifolds!) and transmission comes right out. takes about an hour to pull both. sure you give up some cabin space for this, but I can reach any part of the engines easily, and don't have to worry about dirtying up the cabin . It's all a matter of what you want, and being a fisherman/diver, the large cockpit was just the ticket, and I do all my own maintenance, so access was a priority.

[dvgale]

Wow! A million "Thanks" to all of you for your input! I see this is a very timely, lively and well-rounded forum. Please accept my apologies for my absence; working all week, I don't always have time to "check in".

Gonzo, I recall reading about Regal's arrangement - very impressive, indeed! Were I mechanically inclined, I'm sure it would be a pleasure to do any type of work, let alone easy to remove the whole machines, with this elevating/tilting deck hatch system. I believe Cabo and Luhrs use a similar set-up on at least one of their open bridgedeck models apiece; the whole bridge tilts forward, "eighteen-wheeler" style. Cool!

Captword, I'd long wondered if what you described was often done or could be done on a yacht. It sounds like a version of the "soft patch" that is often found on commercial boats or ships for the purpose of removing machinery. On steel or aluminum boats these are deck sections, or bulkhead sections, often bolted or welded into place over the removal route opening. They're called a WERP, for Welded Equipment Removal Plate, or, if bolted, BERP. What you describe sounds like the true craftsman's way of accomplishing the job.

I understand some production builders that don't provide good removal hatches helpfully (they must suppose) provide cutting guides or molded-in patterns in the deck for the cutting tools.

I don't suppose it gets much easier than on your Chris-Craft, Corpus. We had a '72 Luhrs cabin cruiser many years back with a 318 cid Chrysler V8. Rather Spartan, especially by today's standards. Absolutely no furnishings in the cockpit. But, once you popped the engine hatch, all was right there in plain view, from the engine to the batteries to the V-drive to the rudder post. Even the fuel tanks below the sidedecks could be inspected without too much trouble. Ahh, they don't (often) build them like that anymore...

[dvgale]

Incidentally:

For the second time this week (the first was this last Tuesday), I've experienced difficulty posting to this site. After typing my reply, I was informed that I was not logged in! Both times I had, in fact, logged in prior to typing my message. Tuesday evening, my entire post was lost.

This time, the only way I was able to post my message was to copy all I'd typed, save it in a Word document, come back, log in, got booted to the Home page again, then re-entered the forum. The posting was again lost, so I cut and pasted it from Word. This time it worked.

Has this ever happened to you? Perhaps I need to contact the Web master or re-set something?