How Do Things Work In This Industry??

Originally Posted by baeckmo

marking the distinction between "design, as in creating an artistic and appealing shape" and "design, as in engineering functionality related to shapes". In many languages, we see the use of synonyms for "construction" when we talk "engineering design". I feel that maybe the linguistic distinction in English is a bit diffuse (or is it my lack of understanding ??).

You understood right Baeckmo! And it was me, not tired to bring that up every other time when we discuss that topic with non native English speakers. Almost the entire world understands "design" as a artistic styling, not "engineering design", that is named "construction" or similar. The English "construction" we know as "building" something.

And fully concur with the rest.

Regards
Richard

[tkk]

The term "Naval ARCHITECT" keeps bothering me as well. In Finnish language and when talking about buildings, an architect designs the look of a building, the arrangements of the rooms and facilities etc.

But the technical problems about how to build the thing and how (if at all!) to make it stand the loads of wind, snow on the roof or even its own weight are not bothering him/her at all. That is the problem of the construction engineer, who makes the calculations of how much steel in the concrete etc.

So architects are more artists than engineers.

[Chris Ostlind]

I think that boat design/naval architecture a very interesting melding of the two different disciplines of art and science; The thoughts for each coming from different sides of the brain. You can be a pure artist and work in the field and you can be a pure engineer, as well. Humans being what we are, it's fairly rare for one individual to have big JuJu in both environments.

So, what you typically see are very artistic oriented designers with enough knowledge of engineering to stay away from obvious structural problems. You also see folks who are very powerful with engineering capabilities, who develop just enough artistic skill to represent them satisfactorily.

For example: My skill sets are very strongly of the first variety, while I work to acquire the depth necessary to perform well in the latter. When I need to have something engineered that is beyond my working knowledge, I interact with a qualified engineer for the proper solutions. This is a powerful approach for most people and it works well in theory, as well as practice.

Sometimes you'll see a discussion here, where an engineering proponent will be criticizing the work of an artistic designer as, "just a bunch of pretty pictures that are meaningless, as it can't be built". The artist fires back with, "well, if your work were more than a pile of numbers and graphs, we might be able to produce a real boat". Clearly, these two are haggling over what should be a recognized potential for collaboration, rather than trying to tear each other down. Engineers analyze and artists feel. The real beauty comes when they respect one another and produce something great.

What has not been discussed here so far is the need for a sense of vision. The need to understand and be able to translate the design work, whatever the particular mode, so that it all works to serve as a powerful end result. Vision is also reflected in the ability to sort through all the data and combine that with a sense of what would work better to solve a given set of issues... and then create that solution with the gifts they have acquired, as well as held innately.

Originally Posted by tkk

The term "Naval ARCHITECT" keeps bothering me as well. In Finnish language and when talking about buildings, an architect designs the look of a building, the arrangements of the rooms and facilities etc.
But the technical problems about how to build the thing and how (if at all!) to make it stand the loads of wind, snow on the roof or even its own weight are not bothering him/her at all. That is the problem of the construction engineer, who makes the calculations of how much steel in the concrete etc.

So architects are more artists than engineers.

Sorry that is wrong!
The Architect must be able to do the engineering too. He has studied that. He otherwise is not allowed to call himself Architect! (building / construction)
Although there are two different approaches in w. Europe, one coming from the artificial, the other from the engineering side.
Therefore one tends more to number crunching, the other to "styling". But the basics of both worlds know both of them.
Both have one thing in common: there comes a point in the design phase when you have to shoot them, otherwise you´ll never get it built. They both have the attitude to redesign and redesign and redesign to "improve" the plans. In 90% of the projects the result gets worse with every stage of "redesign"!

You see, almost the same as in the maritime world.

Regards
Richard

[jdworld]

Originally Posted by apex1

You understood right Baeckmo! And it was me, not tired to bring that up every other time when we discuss that topic with non native English speakers. Almost the entire world understands "design" as a artistic styling, not "engineering design", that is named "construction" ore similar. The English "construction" we know as "building" something.

And to actually take that even further, in the US when you say "design" or "designer" for some reason the first thing that comes to every persons mind is someone who is an "Interior Designer" - someone who picks out furnishings and paint colors for rooms and spaces. That has always really bugged me. Because a "designer" can be someone who designs anything from boats to cars to shoes. An "architect" in most people's heads means building designer (and engineer), even though for bigger buildings a structural engineer does the engineering. If you say "engineer" people think bridges, even though there's atleast half a dozen actual engineer categories (mechanical, structural, electrical, etc). And then there's "Naval Architect".......which I've been learning on this list is usually more of the engineer of a boat than the architect of a boat.......they should be called "naval engineers" instead of "naval architect". Athough i guess you could say that the word architect implies someone who does both the engineering side and the design side of things.

It would make it all much simpler if people just called themselves either boat designer or boat engineer. Or building designer or building engineer, etc. With products, I think the designer probably does both the design and the engineering. So generally speaking, I think the smaller something gets, the more likelihood that a single person is handling both sides of the equation.

[jdworld]

The Architect must be able to do the engineering too. He has studied that. He otherwise is not allowed to call himself Architect! (building / construction)

That's true, but in the US you don't have to know how to do the engineering "calcs" required for typical building permits to be able to get a license to be an Architect. You learn a lot of it in school, and you have do some for the test, but you're not expected to know how to engineer a skyscraper to become an architect. Good knowledge of structural systems, steel, concrete, etc? Yes, but calcs for all the loading throughout the building? No. And in fact I would guess most buildings over 4 stories or almost anything with a steel or concrete structure you see standing has been engineered by a licensed structural engineer, not the architect that designed it.

[Chris Ostlind]

I'm curious, Richard... after all these conversations we have had, I do not know your specific professional standing in all of this. Are you a naval architect, a mechanical engineer, a designer...?

Could you share that info with us?

Originally Posted by jdworld

That's true, but in the US you don't have to know how to do the engineering "calcs" required for typical building permits to be able to get a license to be an Architect. You learn a lot of it in school, and you have do some for the test, but you're not expected to know how to engineer a skyscraper to become an architect. Good knowledge of structural systems, steel, concrete, etc? Yes, but calcs for all the loading throughout the building? No. And in fact I would guess most buildings over 4 stories or almost anything with a steel or concrete structure you see standing has been engineered by a licensed structural engineer, not the architect that designed it.

Well I was´nt talking about the US.
In w Europe you MUST be able to do all the static engineering yourself! Of course, sometimes the client does outsource some parts of the planning, sometimes the Architect himself engages a collegue more familiar with some tasks (no matter artificial or engineering).

Same in Yachtdesign, though with a very big difference: everybody can name himself "boat designer" and in some countries even "naval architect", but Nobody can call himself "house designer" and get permission to build a house!

Regards
Richard

[Submarine Tom]

I too am interested in Richards back-ground but it strikes me as odd that

after 2813 posts from him, it hasn't come up before...

-Tom

[TeddyDiver]

Yes it has.. and been answered too...

[Eddy Johansen]

Originally Posted by jdworld

It would make it all much simpler if people just called themselves either boat designer or boat engineer.

That might be the reason why it in Portugal is said that an architect is a bloke not enough gay to be an interior designer and not enough man to be an engineer.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Yes it has.. and been answered too...

So here's the basic problem, then, Teddy. Since nobody has bothered to offer-up a reference to said question and answer... so that everyone here can simply go read it for themselves, it remains an enigma.

A much simpler response would come directly from Richard himself by simply recognizing that not all readers currently participating were around whenever this mysterious event took place. ;-) If I was made aware of the answer, I really must apologize for not having it at hand. There must be thousands of data points made on these pages every day. To remember them all would be daunting.

Or, perhaps you could offer the answer yourself, TD?

Doing a search for that bit of info could take hours of fiddling, so.. what do you say?

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

So here's the basic problem, then, Teddy. Since nobody has bothered to offer-up a reference to said question and answer... so that everyone here can simply go read it for themselves, it remains an enigma.

So answering here doesn't solve the enigma.. Maybe another thread as CV's to names ?

[tkk]

Originally Posted by apex1

Sorry that is wrong!
The Architect must be able to do the engineering too. He has studied that. He otherwise is not allowed to call himself Architect! (building / construction)
Although there are two different approaches in w. Europe, one coming from the artificial, the other from the engineering side.

Richard, I am sorry, too, because you jumped into fast conclusions and blatant statements. I was referring to the finnish way of doing this but when was the last time you checked the finnish practise in designing buildings/making structural plans? To be on the safe side I checked five minutes ago.

It is still the practise that anything bigger than a one family house will be structurally planned and all the calculations done by someone with a "M Sc (engineering)" degree. Not an architect, his competence is not enough to get the permits.

Originally Posted by tkk

Richard, I am sorry, too, because you jumped into fast conclusions and blatant statements. I was referring to the finnish way of doing this but when was the last time you checked the finnish practise in designing buildings/making structural plans? To be on the safe side I checked five minutes ago.
It is still the practise that anything bigger than a one family house will be structurally planned and all the calculations done by someone with a "M Sc (engineering)" degree. Not an architect, his competence is not enough to get the permits.

No need to get offending tkk.

Sorry I did not point clear towards WESTERN EUROPE, or central Europe. Just mentioned it in one sentence.
And you were talking "Finnish Language" not Finland! So, both did not make clear enough what we are talking.

But again: a Architect MUST know the way to structural calculate a several storey building, he otherwise does´nt pass the exam.s.
That does NOT include bridges, tunnels, skyscrapers of course. But the basic ability he has.
Common practice though is to outsource structural engineering even for a one family house, due to the fact, that these specialists are faster, cheaper and usually have a up to date databank.

When we compare the landbased and the marine jobs, there are many many parallels to find.

The last time I worked with a Architect from Finland was 1987 btw.

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Yes it has.. and been answered too...

And remains confident I hope! Thank you Teddy.

There are quite many ways to ask, if one has a question (private).

Regards
Richard