High torque engines

way to go Jim
I like this thing
would make a great generator power source
runs on low pressure steam or air
and dam simple to construct







or could run on low pressure steam
the bigger ones seem to run at about 1000lbs inlet pressure

 

I have seen those videos, I like the simplicity of the tesla turbine. You could run that off the exhaust of a steam engine, save steam and make power.

Whats going on with the steam engine idea? are you using an engine to power the thing or a electric motor powered by a steam engine?

 

well Im still working things out so I know what my design parameters are
the only thing the steam engine has going against it at this point is the high steam pressure requirement
I found one new cost 2000 for the castings ( I have a machine shop available to me )
it puts out 125 hp at 400+ ft/lbs and 1500 rpm max and 600lb working pressure
Ild need two of em and they would need three boilers ttl
the ttl weight of both engines and boilers is about 1550 lbs not including water

so that is the bench mark that an alternative system will have to meet in order to be seriously considered
thing is the lower I can get that steam pressure the happier I am

the Sterling engine seems to be a gutless wonder in terms of power so Im now on to considering the T turbine
thing is the Stirling runs on heat
the T requires steam and so boilers

should it not be practical to adapt either engine to meet the capabilities of the typical steam engine

then Ill just go with the original steam engine idea
speaking of which
do you know who makes a new triple expansion steam engine in the 125 hp range

 

I dont know where to get a 125 hp steam engine, but I have an idea that has been tested and will probably be much cheaper than buying a steam engine.

Converting a 4 cycle gas engine to steam. A new head and cam, and viola. Complete with oil pump and water pump. Get one out of an old car in a junkyard, then just do some modifications. It would not be double acting, but the 4-8 cylinder would make it as powerful. It can withstand the pressure, be replaced with ease, and parst are readily avaible at a low cost.

This has been done before, it powered a car though.

If you want more info, just ask. I can basicly explain the whole process, I have done this conversion with much success on a small 2 hp and 5 hp briggs.

 

whats the steam pressure required to give the needed 125 hp for say a chev. 350

 

The B/S and especially R/S ratios will be WAY wrong for anything like optimum performance if you try to convert a gasoline engine over to steam. Maybe a low speed stationary diesel, maybe, since it will have a long stroke and long con rods. But a gasoline engine will suck for steam. I'm not saying it won't run; it will run. It will just be very sub optimum.

Jimbo

 

On the basis that the head is replaced to give power on every downstroke, you only need 625kPa at 1800rpm. If you want the power at slower revs then increase the pressure in proportion to change in revs.

Will require about 3000kg/hr of steam so something like 10% overall efficiency.

Rick W

 

and so died the idea of converting an engine
I think the Stirling engine idea died as well

seems the triple expansion steam engine is closing in on being the winner with maybe a bank of Tesla Turbine generators powering an electric engine running a distant second
the T turbines are unbelievably noisy according to everyone who mentions what they sound like
and Im after some peace and quiet
although it may be possible to balance the load with the input pressure to reduce the rpm sufficiently to eliminate the noise issue
but T turbines tend to develop hp and have low starting hp ( like nearly non existent )

I saw a performance chart for a test series of T turbines
a set of I think 15 plates spaced at .02 inches and 12 inch diameter at an unlisted working pressure resulting in 10,000 rpm yielded about 20 h
T turbines have varying efficiency claims from 60~90%



the efficiency of the steam engine is all about the condenser and single, double or triple expanding design
it takes 972 btu to vaporize water at 100C
if the engine uses 1200 lbs of steam at max 1500 rpm and 125 hp then it takes 1,166,400 btus per hour to feed and produces at 125 hp or 318,000 btu
or 27.5% efficient for the reliable steam enigne companies single expansion 125 hp engine running a 100% efficient condenser
Im off to find a triple expansion engine

I think the goal needs to be to find an engine of at least 35% efficiency in order to keep the system on pace
or at least on pace to outperform diesel monetarily
from an environmental standing any carbon neutral energy outperforms a fossil fuel source

the diesels in the elco 57 flat top rebuild were 6BT5.9-m
at 1400 rpm had 134 hp and ate 2.7 gallons pr hour
134 hp = 746wx134 = 100,000 watts out and
2.7 gallons diesel contains 130,500 btu per gallon or 352.350 btu's ttl = 352,350 x 0.293 = 103,238 watts
100,000 watts out and 103,238 went in
dam I did something wrong
or these guys lied about there fuel consumption/power output
diesels typically have an efficiency of about 40% if I remember it and at best maybe 60

logic being that if the pellet fuel costs half as much the engine can be half as efficient before it becomes financially disadvantageous to use in place of diesel

ergo a diesel of 40~60% efficiency could be replaced with a steam engine of 20~30% efficiency run on pellets
the engine being considered having a max efficiency of about 27.5% with a return condenser temp of 100C

dam
looks like its working so far

so
why did the efficiency calculation of basic energy in and energy out not work when run from the industry provided numbers

 

I think the steam engine was replaced because the fuel took to much space in the ship. In other words unless your build a freight train with various fuel cars or a ship willing to sacrifice 50% of its volume to fuel, your not going to get very far... I think batteries potentially can store more energy per cubic foot than power pellets. Something to think about. There are many forms of efficiency.

 

There is quite a bit of kick in a tube of tooth paste. I ran out of deoderant and I err put some under my arm pits, well we live and learn.

I not saying you can run a car off it,--can you?

 

I worked out the volume issue way earlier
I think its twice the volume per btu
pellets are ~64 cubic feet per ton at 17~22 million btu per ton
the boiler is 90% efficient
the prop is 85% efficient
there is no transmission
and the engine is 27.5 % efficient as a single stage single acting engine with subsequent designs getting substantially more than that
but for the sake of this study I went with a readily available simple inexpensive steam engine produced locally and using common off the shelf components in the rotating assembly

diesels are about 40% efficient and require a transmission
transmission is say 95% efficient but expensive
prop is 85% efficient for the slower turning steam engine but the diesels faster turning prop will be 50~60% if the norm is followed
and the fuel tanks for obvious reasons need to be big and heavy to hold a ton of fuel, also very expensive
a ton of fuel = 300 gallons

Im considering this application of alternative fuels for an elco 57
which has tons ( har har ) of room so fuel volume is less of an issue

so far baring a few more things to work out
its cheaper to install
cheaper to run
cheaper to maintain
and better for the environment



given that the fuel is bagged rather than liquid form it can be fit into every nook and cranny the vessel has to offer without the expense of huge tanks or expensive delivery systems and pellets are clean, you can spill em and no big deal they stoke themselves from hoppers that are automatically filled

yup there are some draw backs but at half the cost per btu of diesel considering diesel at $3 a gallon (which it wont be at for long) the steam engine can be half as efficient and the steam engine still has advantages if you are willing to tolerate the disadvantage of bulky but safe cheap fuel and a roaring fire in the belly of the beast. not to mention the chance of explosion

I say change is good and thinking outside the box is even better
diesel wont be round for much longer
if we are lucky fossil fuel will run out tomorrow
pellets are completely renewable and available on nearly every continent
cheap

If it works out that a pellet fueled boiler can be made to run an economical energy transfer system then its worth doing it simply because its cheaper per btu for the fuel.


toothpaste as deodorant eh
Ild have gotten you a pint were we in the pub and you told me that story

as for running a car off it
think of it this way

why did the audio industry bring us up through all the nifty gadgets to play our music on and then once they had sold us a new system every ten years or so finally introduce what they had forty years ago
music stored on a chip
they wanted to be able to sell you a new system on a regular business
why
its a business

same way the automobile companies are going to introduce complex unnecessary technology in an effort squeeze as many sales out of a trusting and hopeful public

when a simple cheaper but technologically inferior solution is likely to, or probably already has presented itself.

its a sales gimmick to laud the conveniences of the norm in order to maintain the status quo
the status quo being the perpetuation of the oil and gas guzzling engines

there are alternatives
they will be found
and they will be found by people who look for them
and not by the beneficiaries of the status quo

my two cents

 

I sure appreciated those clips of the tesla turbine. I've been fascinated with those things for years but it is hard seperating fact from fiction when dealing with Tesla. A brilliant yet eccentric fellow.

 

guy was a whack job
swore off woman and said they distracted him
were he standing in front of me Id tell him "pull your head out man, they distract all of us, thats what the're here for"
that and beer baseball and boats

he disillusioned his investors with wild claims that although probably he was capable of pulling it off
he should have saved for a more advantageous moment
basically he was the worlds worst business man and died broke after most of his inventions had been stolen by others